NL25 KK

[Snafu'd]

I check the flop to induce a bluff. If he doesn't oblige, I shove any turn card. There's really no reason to worry getting drawn out on as the only flush draw hand that makes sense already has you beat.

[Snafu'd]

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IMO his range of Ax hands is so small, and his overall range of hands is so wide, that stacking off on this flop can almost never be incorrect

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I really don't think it matters much either way. I'm just more inclined to check against this guy b/c he has some donkish stats (small sample size, I know).

[monkeymaps]

I dont get those folks saying shove what hands are calling that we beat? at least if we check villan might bet qq/jj and we get an extra bet from him but he is never calling our push with those hands. this is a classic WA/WB situation and there are almost no cards that can come on the turn to change things so its not like giving a free card is a concern.

[aaharty]

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you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

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Shove.

He has a flush draw almost never here IMO unless it is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which already was beating you before the turn. However, he'll have a single heart more often and I don't want to give a one card flush draw a free shot at beating me.

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and what is the difference between pushing the turn now and pushing the flop before? as i see it, with the third heart out there, he's now folding QQ/JJ whereas a flop push he might not be folding. he's still calling with AK/AQ, of coure calling with sets/flushes. i think in this scenario, both players checking the flop was bad for your hand.

when the heart doesn't come up, it changes nothing at all. and when the heart comes up, it's bad for you.

thoughts?

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this is a good point imo but at NL25 with his stats I think he pushes the flop (or even calls your turn shove with the heart) enough that checking the flop is still the best move..

[FreddyT87]

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I dont get those folks saying shove what hands are calling that we beat? at least if we check villan might bet qq/jj and we get an extra bet from him but he is never calling our push with those hands. this is a classic WA/WB situation and there are almost no cards that can come on the turn to change things so its not like giving a free card is a concern.

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thinking about the hand, this might be the final conclusion. while i thought pushing is the best play here, i think check/calling is way better now, because you show weakness. just never fold to a push.

[stillnaive]

When are you ever going to call the extra bet from QQ/JJ? Last I checked, a bet from QQ/JJ looks exactly the same as a bet from AA/AK/AQ when you can't see his cards.

[Snafu'd]

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I havent played nl25 for a while, but idk, are people regularly committing suicide there now? Why would he shove into an ace high board when he can just check behind?

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why do you suggest that villain takes a different approach with a middle pair then we do? if villain has JJ/QQ and is decent, he might think as well pushing here will only lead to a call from hands that beat me.

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If this was NL50/100 I would agree with you guys but I think your giving NL25 players too much credit, a lot of the time they are bad enough to do this..

Regardless, why does it matter?? If you push your not allowing him any opportunity to push a worse hand. Even if there is a only a 1% chance (much bigger than this imo) he will push worse hands if you check to him, why is this a bad move? Especially if your 'pot-committed' and push any turn card if he checks behind..

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Well, the counter to this argument is that he may call a flop push with JJ or QQ given that he has less than a 1/2 psb behind. But if he checks behind on the flop and a heart peels off on the turn and hero shoves, he may decide that his hand is no good (if he doesn't hold a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) and decide to give up. I think we're just splitting hairs here given the amount of money left behind but I'm still in the check the flop camp. It just doesn't matter enough either way imo.

[Snafu'd]

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When are you ever going to call the extra bet from QQ/JJ? Last I checked, a bet from QQ/JJ looks exactly the same as a bet from AA/AK/AQ when you can't see his cards.

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If you are suggesting check/fold, take a look at stack sizes.

[aaharty]

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I dont get those folks saying shove what hands are calling that we beat? at least if we check villan might bet qq/jj and we get an extra bet from him but he is never calling our push with those hands. this is a classic WA/WB situation and there are almost no cards that can come on the turn to change things so its not like giving a free card is a concern.

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thinking about the hand, this might be the final conclusion. while i thought pushing is the best play here, i think check/calling is way better now, because you show weakness. just never fold to a push.

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agree, as all the chips are going in anyway, just pushing the flop here is a huge mistake and violates a crucial concept - your aim is to make your opponents make mistakes. By pushing your opponent wont get it in with worse hands (or much less often). By checking you allow him to make the mistake and he gets it all in with worse hands much more often..

[stillnaive]

I said push and pray. There's two whole cards in the deck that will convince us that we're strong enough to call/bet if we check this flop. You're basically folding a 3/1 pot if you're saying wait and see, because you're just not going to catch up. It's just... not going to happen. If you really don't think there's at least a 25% chance he's got QQ/JJ, you've got the sickest read on villain in the history of 25nl. Both stacks are very short; do you really think he doesn't call anything without an ace?