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Old 10-29-2007, 02:11 AM
Frond Frond is offline
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Default Bet Folding

Wanted to see if some of you can speak about some specific situations where bet folding came into play in LHE. I posted a hand a few weeks ago where I had bet folded and at first I hated that I had but a few of you pointed out that it is a great weapon to have in ones LHE arsenal. So what player types & specific hands that you like to do this with that immediately come to mind? I know that Kit probably can chime in here with several.
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2007, 02:38 AM
kbdunn kbdunn is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

Here are my initial thoughts, probably with a good amount of errors:

Bet/fold line is great against certain opponents with which you have a good read, ideally against a passive non-tricky opponent.

The line garners a lot more value than the c/c line on certain boards/villains, because you will gain value from calls of hands you beat when not raised, where as c/c against certain opponents/boards you will only be calling when a better hand is betting, therefore always making a losing call (this is unless your opponent will bluff with his worse hands, then c/c gains more value). Remember all the hands where you checked OOP and it was checked through and your HIG, missing a value bet.

Examples such as when the flush card hits and your opponent is one to not bluff you without the goods. Its heads up and you bet into your villain, the flush card looks as scary to you as him, against a passive villain and small pot, you can probably bet/fold this.

Different boards and how many other players are in the hand are big variables, the more passive the opponent and more villains (bluffing into a field is less profitable than heads up), the more inclined you should be bet/folding. Trickier opponents who will raise with combo draws and fire a barrel UI on the river etc. will need to be bet/called or c/c to obtain the most value.

Also be aware of your own relative hand strength compared to your range of villain's hand and the board. Bet/folding two pair is sometimes correct, and sometimes incorrect. Its a lot easier to bet/fold a pair than stronger hands such top two or a set.

During the session also keep in mind some villains may be seeing you bet/fold and will then take shots. So make sure to change gears and look some people up if they are paying attention.

It kinda boils down to how your villains will bet their hands, if they are frequently raising worse hands, bet/call on certain boards, if they are frequently only raising better hands on the same boards bet/fold, if they are rarely calling worse hands, but will bet when checked to, c/c.
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Old 10-29-2007, 02:54 AM
One Outer One Outer is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

I remember the thread you're talking about. I thought that was a really important idea that I wasn't utilizing enough. I've been trying to incorporate the bet/fold into my play more the past several weeks and my results have been excellent. Just anecdotally I can see that I'm getting that extra bet in spots where I normally would have just checked it through. I'm sure Kit will pop in here at some point and give us all a great cliff's notes version of when to bet/fold, but until then here is my .02.

I have been using the bet/fold primarily against loose passive players, especially when I'm OOP. I had a great example today. I held QQ in early position. I raised and got two callers, one the BB, who is pretty solid but passive, and one an LP calling station in the CO. The flop came J96, with two hearts, and my QQ is black. BB checks, I bet, CO calls, BB folds. Turn is a 6, bet call. River is the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, he calls shows me JTo and I start stacking chips.

Now in the past, even in position, I would check/called the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river there. I'm just plain scared of it. I end up spending the same bet when he gets there and I end up missing a bet when he has a hand that I beat but won't bet on the end.

This may just be my experience but I'm also finding that it gets me loose river action I never would have gotten before. I think it's screwing with the thinking of some of the better players in my game. They are used to seeing the dangerous river and turn cards checked through, and when you bet them, they tend to think you're bluffing. I can almost see the gears turning in their heads:

"Why is he betting that spade? Isn't he afraid he'll get raised? He must not have a hand and think that the only way he can win is to bet. I'm going to make a superstar call with third pair and a busted straight draw."

I cannot believe the calls I have gotten out of some regulars in the past few weeks.
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  #4  
Old 10-29-2007, 03:44 AM
Harv72b Harv72b is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

It's late & the sleeping pills are kicking in, so I won't try to type out a full answer tonight. But the short version is, when I bet/fold it's very likely that either I had absolutely nothing & was hoping to steal the pot with a bet, or that I have a read on my opponent as being extremely passive and/or straightforward & can trust that his raise means monster.

While I do agree that it's an important part of any good player's LHE arsenal, that doesn't mean that I like doing it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] This of course assumes a HU pot.
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2007, 09:49 AM
KitCloudkicker KitCloudkicker is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

Frond:

Nate. summed up my philosophy on stuff like this here

"All --

mike l. is a million percent right in this thread. Not folding decent hands on the river is (a) throwing money away against players who not only never raise/bet/whatever worse hands but take pride in not raising/betting/whatevering worse hands on the river, and (b) symptomatic of rote play, most of whose effects are way more damaging than not folding TPTK, and include things like not folding 55/AJ on the button to a cutoff raise from some ridiculously tight player because you have AJ vs. a cutoff raise and (c) leads to really terrible discussion in this forum;
--Nate


A med stakes b/f thread
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  #6  
Old 10-29-2007, 09:55 AM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

kit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

that's (while being a long and intense thread) not a good example to post for how to learn to b/f
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:59 AM
KitCloudkicker KitCloudkicker is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

op,

also, when i take a b/f line, both the "story" i tell and the "story" the villain tells has to make sense.

another example:

Live full 10.

villain raises UTG, 1 CC, I 3 bet JJ in hijack, BB calls 2, all call.

Flop T8x (two tone), checked to me I bet, BB calls, UTG CR's, folded to me I 3 bet, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn red 7, UTG checks, I bet, BB calls, UTG CR's again, I call, BB calls.

River blank, UTG bets I fold.

Notice how this "story" make sense. i have announced that I have a big hand preflop and followed it up with a flop 3 bet. Villain has CR'd me on two streets and also trapped the player in the middle, getting maximum value from what it clearly a monster hand. At this point its obvious that he either has a tricky AA or a set of T's and is looking for me to pay him off. I call the turn with my gutshot/J outs and fold the river UI (villain had TT).
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2007, 10:00 AM
KitCloudkicker KitCloudkicker is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

[ QUOTE ]
kit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

that's (while being a long and intense thread) not a good example to post for how to learn to b/f

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree the b/f is terrible in that thread but i had to reference the source
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2007, 10:20 AM
KitCloudkicker KitCloudkicker is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

OP,

i guess the follow up is: what are bad spots to b/f?

1) when HU. in multiway pots, bluffing frequency goes way down, indeed for most opponents a big street bluff percentage is around 0% multiway. when HU this percentage increases dramatically.

2) when HU and the turn or river blanks. self-explanatory

3) when the turn puts up a flush draw and you're HU or 3 way. self-explanatory

4) when HU, and the turn or river is a scare card and its obvious that card doesnt help you

these are off the top of my head. in general, although counterintuitive, people also take more shots when the pot is smaller, knowing they have more fold equity. so keep that in mind as well.


all of this also depends on your opponents. some never bluff. some value raise the river with things you beat. it varies, which is why reads are crucial.

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  #10  
Old 10-29-2007, 11:33 AM
Dhani Dhani is offline
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Default Re: Bet Folding

[ QUOTE ]
I have been using the bet/fold primarily against loose passive players, especially when I'm OOP. I had a great example today. I held QQ in early position. I raised and got two callers, one the BB, who is pretty solid but passive, and one an LP calling station in the CO. The flop came J96, with two hearts, and my QQ is black. BB checks, I bet, CO calls, BB folds. Turn is a 6, bet call. River is the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, he calls shows me JTo and I start stacking chips.

Now in the past, even in position, I would check/called the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river there. I'm just plain scared of it. I end up spending the same bet when he gets there and I end up missing a bet when he has a hand that I beat but won't bet on the end.

You mention above that you have been incorporating the bet/fold more as illustrated in this situation.
1) You would then lean torwards folding if villain raises with position in this situation.
2) What if villain is OOP and check raises you?
3)What if villain calls the turn bet?
a)Do you BET/FOLD the river against a raise?


This may just be my experience but I'm also finding that it gets me loose river action I never would have gotten before. I think it's screwing with the thinking of some of the better players in my game. They are used to seeing the dangerous river and turn cards checked through, and when you bet them, they tend to think you're bluffing. I can almost see the gears turning in their heads:

"Why is he betting that spade? Isn't he afraid he'll get raised? He must not have a hand and think that the only way he can win is to bet. I'm going to make a superstar call with third pair and a busted straight draw."

I cannot believe the calls I have gotten out of some regulars in the past few weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]
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