Babar angry, goes to 5/10 (2 AK spots)

[favreftw]

*grunch*
Hand 1 is a terrible flop for you.. two pair at the least is very likely here. since your hand doesnt have good equity at all(i consider it to be a marginal hand).. i would check and wait to see what develops behind me.

hand 2
I think that raising the flop is probably ok.
If he's a passive player that calls down alot, then I would take the free card on the turn..
I gave about 7 outs for hand 2.

[KitCloudkicker]

both are modest spew

dont play tilty imo

hand 2 isnt as bad as hand 1 tho

[Allday Everyday]

I just skimmed the other posts. Think I agree with the consensus that both plays are wrong. They're both the kind of plays I tend to make when tilty - easy to do I reckon but slight losers. As we're looking for folds in both cases, I think they're obv slightly worse if you have a generally LAGTAG image, and obv slightly worse if you are playing LP guys who like to call.

Hand one:
IMO just too many opponents to make the bet work. In a way I think the board has landed in the limpers' likely range. I think you could get folds out of underpairs and assorted crud, but too many will have some piece for us to take the pot down, or even to trim the field down to HU. I'm looking to check-call here. I'm guessing 6.5 outs on average.

Hand two:
Yeah, I would just call here. I think SB will often fold anyway and the BB might have given you a free card anyway if he is one of the LPs. I'm guessing 7.5 outs on average.

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Mitke,

[ QUOTE ]
However, I doubt all four Jacks are still in the deck.

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I'm interested in this concept. But at the flop, before we bet, how can you say it's likely less than 4 jacks are left in the deck? 3 LP limpers, and LP limpers often have a jack?

[DavidC]

afaik lagtag isn't the way to beat lp donks, except when you get to limits where even the donks need to be tricked. Furthermore, LP is a great adjustment vs lagtags...

hand 1: check flop y0

hand 2 iskinda interesting, you can't clean up outs by raising so i probably just call. you might get a free card though, so it's a toss-up.

[Mitke]

[ QUOTE ]
Mitke,

[ QUOTE ]
However, I doubt all four Jacks are still in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in this concept. But at the flop, before we bet, how can you say it's likely less than 4 jacks are left in the deck? 3 LP limpers, and LP limpers often have a jack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Allday Everyday, I think calling it a concept might be asking too much..

To answer: yes, that's what I was thinking: JT,J9,J8s,QJ,KJ, etc. is stuff I think a lot of LPs like to (open)limp with. Hence, my comment and perhaps a slight discounting of J outs.

Thinking it a bit further, there isn't much of a reason to assume that before we see how they react.

Further, thinking like this might lead to counting us to have too little outs and lose value in some spots. I'd be willing to discuss though if there are any spots where you actually should discount your outs because you assume some of them migth be in your villains hand?

E.g: EP raises, we cold-call with KQs in MP, another MP 3-bets (and maybe BTN caps). Flop comes JT2r. Can we assume to have 4 outs to the ace?

(This is going woefully off-topic though.)

[JerBear77]

Hand 1: bet and call one on the way back, pot is big enough to draw to just the gutter not to mention the possibilities of the A and/or K being good.

Hand 2: I think your hand here is strong enough to just call here and suck people in for xtra bets. Two overcards that are most likely clean and BDFD plus a gutter.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
(i had another 2p2er sweating me and i don't think he'd say i was playing bad/tilty here but definitely a bit more aggro than normal).

[/ QUOTE ]
Full disclosure: c'est moi. And I did, and still do, think you were way too aggro in these hands. We were talking about another hand where I recommended a turn check/raise and you argued against it because you wanted a showdown and not to get taken to 3-town. I think a similar situation applies here, because both of these flops have the potential to hit your opponents hard, and right now you have squadoosh.

I like the second better than the first, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. It forces SB into a bad decision if he's got a gutshot, and allows you to take a freebie if the turn blanks. The downside is that donktastic BB might three-bet you here, and you're [censored].

The first is just spewtacular, since at 10 BB the pot is too big to get anyone to fold whom you want out, and anyone who does fold is drawing thin anyway. Disadvantages to checking are that it turns your hand face-up, and increases the chances that you'll face two cold from a bet/raise behind you. But those are minor concerns; you don't want to put two bets in on this street anyway.

[BadBigBabar]

yea on hand 1 i figured it's 10:1 already just for my gutter, and maybe my overs outs are somewhat good, so i didn't mind betting and felt i could withstand a raise, with good position to c/r everybody if i hit broadway on turn or riv

hand 2 i felt like i had a ton of outs and would definitely take the free card if warranted

[bellatrix]

I actually like the raise in hand 2. I think it fits in with some examples Stox gives in the "A high" chapter (sorry, i don't have the book here right now). You got TONS of outs, even if some are tainted.

Now hand 1 is not nice... "still got to cbet cbet everything in limit"... [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[Bona]

I read your post and the hands. More words than you usually type in 10 posts combined.

I looked at your hands and read the posted responses. I have nothing to add to them.

Since you are one of the player/posters I genuinely respect I went back and reread several of you responses to posters regarding tilt. Your posts demonstrate a good understanding of the phenomena and cogent advice on dealing with it effectively. As I knew it would.(search tilt witin the last year) BIgBadBabar poster)

I didn't find any instance where you had advised anyone to fight tilt by angrily moving up in stakes. As my hero BBB might say WTF??? You have, however, frequently advised posters to take a break and or go way down in stakes to play through it.