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  #21  
Old 10-16-2007, 12:35 AM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: Bans

[ QUOTE ]
but as a volunteer it's just not something you can ask of me given the amount of time it takes and the relative thanklessness of doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO

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The personal touch of the moderator began to deteriorate.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can only be so patient for so long. When POG first started I was religious about updating things like the calendar and so forth, or updating links in the sticky, but like citanul said it's easy to outgrow your forum where it no longer is important to send a personal PM after doing this for years now.

Thats why in STT's case citanul and I offloaded most of the more routine work to first tigerite and bluefeet and now wiggs and DevinLake. It's just too much work to ask for volunteers to give THAT much attention to what eventually becomes really routine situations. STT is a fairly high traffic forum but I expect the problem is much, much worse in BBV4L and OOT.
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  #22  
Old 10-16-2007, 12:40 AM
Jim Kuhn Jim Kuhn is offline
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Default Re: Bans

[ QUOTE ]
believe me, i have tried to explain rules to people over and over and over. it generally seems to make things worse - hell even half the mods here can't understand them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could this statement be part of the problem? My general opinion is that rules are for people that lack the ability to utilize common sense. If people are not understanding the rules maybe there is a problem with 'that specific rule' and not the posters.

I do not venture into oot very often and certainly am not pointing the finger there. I have not even read those rules in several months. I do understand that a few of the forums are much harder to moderate than others. I think most of us would agree that 'the younger targeted forums' are much harder to moderate.

I think permabans should last forever (or at least one year). I also think permabans with users having more than 100 posts should be suggested by mods and approved by reds. A permaban should be a 'ban on sight'. If a user is causing problems and deemed undesirable by reds they are not welcome back under a different name. JMHO

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
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  #23  
Old 10-16-2007, 12:40 AM
NT! NT! is offline
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Default Re: Bans

ryan,

i don't think you expect that, sometimes when i get going i start remembering dumb things other people have said to me and don't really differentiate.

the problem is that if i DON'T humor them for a long back-and-forth convo the result is they tend to be like 'whatever you can't even explain your own rules' and go on doing what they want until i do something that inhibits their ability to do what they want.

i agree, we should talk about what the infraction system will entail... tomorrow. i have a paper to write and i'm wasting a lot of time. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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  #24  
Old 10-16-2007, 12:43 AM
Ryan Beal Ryan Beal is offline
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Default Re: Bans

[ QUOTE ]
BINGO

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying you have to ban because doing otherwise would be asking too much doesn't make sense to me. You're more or less making an argument for bans that can never be opposed using that premise.

In my personal opinion, the solution for those who would never want to do anything more is that they do even less. Just don't ban. Let the admins deal with it if necessary. Being a mod has always been a volunteer thing. You only do as much as you want to do. However, you're already doing something that affects 2+2 when you ban a user.
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  #25  
Old 10-16-2007, 12:46 AM
NT! NT! is offline
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Default Re: Bans

[ QUOTE ]

Could this statement be part of the problem? My general opinion is that rules are for people that lack the ability to utilize common sense. If people are not understanding the rules maybe there is a problem with 'that specific rule' and not the posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

hi jim,

in general, the difficulty with OOT is that it has a particular culture that has developed, in part, out of the arbitrary nature of its rules, and their subjective enforcement by mods. my job is very different from [censored] - nobody wants me to be like [censored] and i don't want to either. but his style still defines the way some of the older OOT posters think about rules and moderation in that forum.

it sounds kind of dumb but part of the reason OOT's core posters like OOT is that you have to put in a little bit of effort to understand the rules and forum culture.

but then when you get too comfortable with certain aspects of those rules as a mod, suddenly you find out people are actually sick of that part, and they want to emphasize something else.

short answer, yeah, it does make it more difficult for everyone.

someone may want to come along and remake the whole forum eventually... being a crotchety old timer i am trying to just make do with inevitable, gradual change.

i think a lot of this difficulty with ambiguous or unspoken rules starts to come up when forums explode in size, like 2p2 has.
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  #26  
Old 10-16-2007, 12:52 AM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: Bans

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BINGO

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying you have to ban because doing more would be asking too much doesn't make sense to me. You're more or less making an argument for bans that can never be opposed using that premise.

In my personal opinion, the solution for those who would never want to do anything more is that they do even less. Just don't ban. Let the admins deal with it if necessary. Being a mod has always been a volunteer thing. You only do as much as you want to do. However, you're already doing something that affects 2+2 when you ban a user.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i can't speak for bbv4l/oot etc. but i almost never ban people that aren't spammers/nosnos anyway.
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  #27  
Old 10-16-2007, 12:58 AM
NT! NT! is offline
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Default Re: Bans

ryan,

that argument doesn't really make sense to me. if i do what you say OOT will basically suck. why am i a mod if i am just going to let OOT suck? if i 'do nothing,' are you going to come up with a set of rules and decide how they should be enforced, then enforce them?
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  #28  
Old 10-16-2007, 01:04 AM
Ryan Beal Ryan Beal is offline
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Default Re: Bans

Somehow my point is being lost about this particular, so I'm going to make it in a way that's not quite how I intend it to come out.

- mods don't have to do any 'work' they dont want to do
- mods must follow the guidelines reds put in place
- reds put these guidelines in place to shape the community and improve 2+2s general image

I'm not asking you to let OOT suck. I'm asking you to find better ways. The purpose of this discussion is to look into what people think about alternative solutions. At this time no new official rules are planned.

But fwiw, I've always been pretty open about my dislike of lots of forum specific rules. That's not something I feel we need to change, just personal preference.
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  #29  
Old 10-16-2007, 01:20 AM
Mat Sklansky Mat Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: Bans

[ QUOTE ]
With over 123,000 registered users

[/ QUOTE ]

where are you getting this number?
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  #30  
Old 10-16-2007, 01:24 AM
El Diablo El Diablo is offline
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Default Re: Bans

Ryan,

"- mods must follow the guidelines reds put in place"

"At this time no new official rules are planned."

I don't feel like your position is fair to mods like NT. The whole Lionel Hutz horse porn thread imo illustrated how ambiguous the forum rules are. And if that's the way you guys want it, fine. But then it doesn't seem fair to me to criticize mods for coming up with policies to deal with that ambiguity.
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