The Issue Again...

[pvn]

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Red herring and you know it. Title insurance does not involve the legitimacy of the US to own its territory. And I never mentioned anywhere about the US govt "backing" your rights to use the land, or your selling of those rights. This whole argument has been about who owns the land (sovereign territory) itself, and I said that didn't trade hands unless the territory was ceded, which it wasn't. So title insurance is an irrelevant detour to this debate.

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I still don't see the relevance of your question. Title insurance insures that the previous occupants (or owners if you insist) of the territory had lawful right to sell their rights to usage (or ownership if you insist). Whether they owned the territory itself or just the rights to use the territory makes no difference to the concept.

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If one owns an apartment building, and allows others to obtain "usage rights" to certain units inside that building, it is clearly the responsibility of the owner to make sure that someone doesn't obtain a usage right to a unit which already has someone with a usage right.

The fact that the government does not serve this function indicates that government is failing to maintain it's property - functionally it is abandoning it. Private markets have emerged to undertake this maintenance that the state
has neglected.

[pvn]

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Just to be clear: I don't say the state owns all property. I said the people of the United States own the *territory* (land only) of the United States.

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OK, I want to sell my shares. How do I do that? When do I obtain these shares in the first place?

Aside, do you feel that a party who specifically denies a claim to a particular piece of property can actually own that property?

http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?T-RCED-95-117

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The federal government owns about 650 million acres, or about 30 percent of the 2.3 billion acres of land in the United States

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So it's not 100%. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Funny thing is that even those who disagree with me mostly admit that the people of the United States through their govt still have jurisdiction over the whole territory of the United States. It is impossible to "own" your territory if outside people have jurisdiction over it.

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So if I beat someone up and take their car, it's no longer his and it becomes mine? Rightfully? Legitimately?

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This is the same reason why France does not have jurisdiction over Louisiana today -- it sold the territory. That simple.

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This doesn't prove any legitimacy any more than me selling tracts on the moon to doofuses on the internet proves that I own the moon.

[pvn]

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Also, Kaj mentions the Louisiana and Alaska purchases - but aren't there areas in the U.S. that were not purchased from anyone?

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Of course. Large amounts were obtained through conquest (e.g. from mexico).

[pvn]

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True or false: An individual, group of individuals or investors, or corporation could make a sovereign govt an offer for a piece of its territory, with the stipulation that the territory would be ceded by the sovereign nation if accepted.

If the answer is true, then my position is not theoretical or philosophical, and there is such a thing as sovereign ownership.

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This doesn't follow at all. Some gang could knock on your door and say they own your property, but they'll let you live there for $X/year, or they'll make a deal and leave you alone for a one-time payment of $Y. Does this prove the gang has soverign ownership?

[Copernicus]

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True or false: An individual, group of individuals or investors, or corporation could make a sovereign govt an offer for a piece of its territory, with the stipulation that the territory would be ceded by the sovereign nation if accepted.

If the answer is true, then my position is not theoretical or philosophical, and there is such a thing as sovereign ownership.

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This doesn't follow at all. Some gang could knock on your door and say they own your property, but they'll let you live there for $X/year, or they'll make a deal and leave you alone for a one-time payment of $Y. Does this prove the gang has soverign ownership?

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It doesnt disprove that you have sovereign ownership, either. I can call the police or you can call your private protection service to enforce your sovereign ownership.

And assuming that your private protection service doesnt decide that it would be good for business to ignore your call and let a nice fear of home invasions build for a while, they may show up and rid your house of the pests.