My Casino AZ Problem....

[*TT*]

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I'm saying that conflating what should be an entirely rational motivation with another motivation, "growing some balls" (proving your courage) is ultimately not in your best interest. If you think taking shots at bigger games is +EV, fine, and it sounds like in this case it worked out for you.

As I already said, the problem is when the same reasoning indicates that you should move back down. Does that mean that, having grown some testicles, you're now shrinking them? If you think this way, then you may have immense psychological barriers to playing at the stakes you need to play at given a certain bankroll. After all, moving down would mean you're a pussy, right? And in general, poker decisions borne out of a fear of being a pussy aren't good ones.

In general anything that tempts you to make a -EV decision should be avoided -- including metaphors that wrongly accept playing higher stakes as a sign of virility. I liked that your post was factual -- I took a shot, I ran good -- so why detract from it by bragging about your courage when you really just took a reasonable gamble and got lucky?

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Ok I see what you are saying now, I thought you were just being another "I have more post than you arrogant prick".

I don't really think that moving down is "being a puss" but I see how it seems that way. I was just, more or less scared of not being good enough to play 20. After doing it I'm not scared of moving up so much anymore. I actually can't wait to have about 20-25k so I can take a few shots in the 40 game. At CAZ it seems there is quite a skill level difference between 20/40 and 40/80 that I don't think exsists from 8/16 to 20/40.

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The CAZ 40/80 plays like 5/10 on Party.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[that_pope]

Thanks for all the replies and ideas. I know for sure a game inbetween will definately strain the 8/16 and 20/40 games. Just tonight we only had one 8/16 game going between like 5pm and when i left at 10pm.

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I have to ask, are you 21-23 years old, wear an ASU had most of the time and seem to always be sitting in seat 5?
The way you discribed yourself in a previous post this is who came to mind.

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Damn, you got me pegged exactly. I love the 5 seat, I am close enough to everyone to be able to talk and gain information. The only times I am not in the 5 is if it never opens up, or if it opens, but i have 2+ racks of chips and moving would be a huge pain, or if I need to be somewhere in relation to a specific person. But for the most part in the 8/16, that isn't an issue.

So what did I say or do that led you to that, or did you just hear "Pope" get called into a game. Was it when I was in a 20/40 game with you? And if so, comments on my play are appreciated.

[Nate.]

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patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60).

PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Agree with your point, but I think it's completely insane to wait until you have 500BB for a game this level when there is a regular game at the level immediately below it to rebuild at. 300BB should be more than sufficient if you are a winning player and I think taking a small shot when you've got 200BB couldn't be all that bad. I'm a nit, so I wouldn't do that, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be bad.

Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets.

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I assume you haven't played in this specific game at this casino before... its very juicy but its also very high variance. Your being blinded by the 20/40 limit, think of this game as a 30/60 limit game that sometimes goes down to 20/40 - because it often plays like this.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT --

When you played the CAZ game, was it a two-in-a-row kill rule? That structure prevents almost all long stretches of kill pots.

I think a player executing a careful shot could do with less risk than you imagine. It is too often overlooked that the probability of certain size downswings decreases dramatically with increases in winrate. And the CAZ 20-40 can breed some very high true winrates.

My hundreds of hours in the game don't make for a huge sample, and I've had a $2k downswing and some smaller ones, but I certainly wouldn't be particularly reluctant to take a shot at the CAZ game.

--Nate

[Howard Beale]

A few remarks:

You can absolutely forget about CAZ spreading 15-30 HE. They took the position from day 1 that they wouldn't do it, ever. For a while we had 15 stud and, for a short while, 15 0/8 but that's it. There was even a 20 mix for a short while but only the better multi-game players sat in it so it was a waste of time for everybody in it.

The horrible 10-20 was killed off by the 8-16 not by the 5-150 ~2 years ago and I was very glad of it. A 2/4 chip game is always the worst game in the house unless it's the biggest game being spread. The poster who suggested having it played with blue $2 chips has the right idea but CAZ won't do it. The room is filled up most nights and they aren't going to fix what isn't broken and for that reason they won't do a 12/24 either, imo.

Hass:

When you say 'take a shot' I'd bet you meant to give it only a play or 3 to see how you did and drop back down if your results were bad or if you felt out-classed and that you were in above your head skill-wise (btw folks, he plays a pretty good game and doesn't lose his head). I think that taking these kind of 'shots' are worthwhile if a player has the discipline to drop back down right away if he knows he should. Also, the 40 game is very often a way better game than the 20. There has been an influx from out of the blue of decent new players in the 20 game and I look at the 40 and console myself that I'll be in it w/i a year.

OP:

As important as having a sufficient BR is if you dropped an entire month's 8-16 profit in a couple of plays in the 20 game you have to ask yourself if you're playing at a level sufficient to beat the game not whether or not your BR is big enough.

TT:

You're right that the game plays bigger than most 20's, thank goodness. To those who come out to CAZ to play it be prepared for what is often (not always) a slug-fest.

[vegasbob]

I think the 20 games is tougher than the 40 game at c AZ as long as you can handle the swings in 40-80 game.
Bob

[*TT*]

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TT --

When you played the CAZ game, was it a two-in-a-row kill rule? That structure prevents almost all long stretches of kill pots.

I think a player executing a careful shot could do with less risk than you imagine. It is too often overlooked that the probability of certain size downswings decreases dramatically with increases in winrate. And the CAZ 20-40 can breed some very high true winrates.

My hundreds of hours in the game don't make for a huge sample, and I've had a $2k downswing and some smaller ones, but I certainly wouldn't be particularly reluctant to take a shot at the CAZ game.

--Nate

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It is a leg up, followed by a kill. I've been playing in that game for a year and 1/2 now (almost 2 years actually). For a safe bankroll I honestly suggest 500BB. However you can survive with a significantly greater risk of ruin with something like 300BB - but its not the optimal choice for event the best players due to the inherent variance that should be expected in this game.

Its also important to note that when the kill pots occur the local player tenancy is to protect his or her kill at all costs, making for some ridiculously huge pots and tremendous possibility for suckouts of course - which I love [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[RayPowers]

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I've been playing in that game for a year and 1/2 now (almost 2 years actually).

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Hey TT, I know you've come to visit AZ, but I didn't think you lived here. Am I misinformed?

Ray

[that_pope]

Well, I guess I'll bring to life a dead thread, just cause I am bored at work.

As some people may know, I bit the bullet and stayed away from the 20/40 game from Feb until the beginning of June, focusing on building my bankroll (and confidence) at the 8/16 game.

The first time I 'took a shot' at the 20/40 game, I was trying way too hard. I was being overly aggressive, and not letting the table come to me. I learned from that, and have been much more successful up there now.

Of course some of it is running good, but rarely do I look around and pick out more than 2 people who are better than me, which means I should be a favorite in the game.

I have been running so well, that Howard keeps hinting at me to take a shot at the 40/80 game, but not yet.

I am glad I kept at the 8/16 game instead of trying to force a new game on the location. It has also made me feel better about my game, being able to win at the 20/40.

Again, sorry to bring up a dead thread, kinda bored at work.

[*TT*]

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I've been playing in that game for a year and 1/2 now (almost 2 years actually).

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Hey TT, I know you've come to visit AZ, but I didn't think you lived here. Am I misinformed?

Ray

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I have a house in Phoenix (I don't own it) because I am a publisher of a magazine that is based there. I try to go every month, I am not that sucessful with my plans however. This is the first time I saw that question, thanks to Ray for reviving it!

[that_pope]

Since when is reviving a thread when someone posted a question to you in it 5 months ago, not me posting something boring from work less than an hour ago?