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#31
08-17-2007, 01:23 AM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
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What's really funny is the Iraq War will never affect most of us in as real of a way as we pretend it will when we argue about it. But it's still fun to claim a moral high ground and argue about it til the cows come home. I always laugh when people get heated about the Iraq war (or I guess you could say politics in general) as if I just stole your car and refuse to give it back. [/ QUOTE ] right.... so in your opinion we can get really involved with things HOW FAR AWAY from home wouldyou say????? a block???? the hood????? city limits?????? stateline???? rio grande cant be right..... and theres the question of HOW FAR BACK IN TIME we can get excited about!!!! can we agree star wars return of the jedi as a milestone???..... we shant get worked up for much before that [ QUOTE ] More intellectual damage is probably done by claiming a side and arguing ferociously for it than could possibly be done with tanks and missiles. [/ QUOTE ]a bullet in the head ends the INTELLECTUAL work and wins the argument i would think but i dont wanna spoil your happy hour...... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] 
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#32
08-17-2007, 06:54 AM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
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Let's get this thread back on track! Lancet. It looks like the real lesson for Americans is the US military can't stop Iraqi men from killing each other. [/ QUOTE ] 655,000 more dead than if the U.S. had not invaded. Looks like we created an impressive slaughter house. Hell, we only lost 400k in WWII on both fronts. Go U.S.A. !!! Democracy in Iraq (for those who are left) no matter what the cost!!
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#33
08-17-2007, 02:36 PM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
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[ QUOTE ] The fact that some semblance of democracy is even in place, in the middle of what is effectively a civil war amongst rival political sects in the heart of the Middle East, is sort of mind boggling. [/ QUOTE ]whats even more mindboggling is that the u.s. is trying to ram down those people throats DEMOCRACY when its patently clear that theyre not and will not be ready for some time for the kind of DEMOCRACY were usedto in the west. [/ QUOTE ] When did I say I thought the Iraq War was a good idea? All I've said is that it seems to me the military has performed very well on this ridiculously hard mission. If you read my post carefully, rather than just jump to some conclusion that you want to rant about, you'll see that I already said I consider this mission ridiculous (in other words, I agree that the war is bad and you're ranting to the choir). If I tell my dog to attack my neighbor, even if I wasn't justified in doing that, you can still sit back and say "Wow, that dog performed its job well." I realize in your mind you'd rather justify the ends with inaccurate arguments because they get you there quicker, but despite agreeing with your end conclusion that the war is bad, I personally have no problem trying to arrive at that conclusion in an intellectually honest way. You should try focusing on what people actually say and not attack some conclusion that you mistakenly give them credit for.
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#34
08-17-2007, 02:36 PM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What's really funny is the Iraq War will never affect most of us in as real of a way as we pretend it will when we argue about it. But it's still fun to claim a moral high ground and argue about it til the cows come home. I always laugh when people get heated about the Iraq war (or I guess you could say politics in general) as if I just stole your car and refuse to give it back. [/ QUOTE ] right.... so in your opinion we can get really involved with things HOW FAR AWAY from home wouldyou say????? a block???? the hood????? city limits?????? stateline???? rio grande cant be right..... and theres the question of HOW FAR BACK IN TIME we can get excited about!!!! can we agree star wars return of the jedi as a milestone???..... we shant get worked up for much before that [ QUOTE ] More intellectual damage is probably done by claiming a side and arguing ferociously for it than could possibly be done with tanks and missiles. [/ QUOTE ]a bullet in the head ends the INTELLECTUAL work and wins the argument i would think but i dont wanna spoil your happy hour...... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Thank you for providing an example to my point.
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#35
08-17-2007, 04:29 PM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There's one important point most everyone has missed regarding Iraq... Even with 21st century technology, the US military can't subdue a population that refuses to be subdued. And the lesson? There's always hope for revolution if we as a people would rise up. Tyranny can only prevail if we accept it. I'm going to Google how to build my own IEDs now... just in case. [/ QUOTE ] The Pentagon had a plan in place for invading Iraq long before Bush got his wish. 300k+ troops would be required. Bush disregarded the plan and Powell's advice and went with Rumsfeld's decision, who had the generals under his thumb. Powell was Sec of State at the time. Things would be so much different if we had sent in 300k from the get go. Even better if we never invaded. [/ QUOTE ] How many troops would you estimate would be required if 15 million US citizens rose up together? (Not that it is likely to happen, but *if* 5% of the population rose up, how would you stop them?) Imagine how much damage they could do. I live in a town of 15,000 with probably 10 police officers -- a group of 20 determined citizens could wipe out the police force in their homes before the morning paper came out. If this happened on widespread scale, there would be chaos. And if you think US is hampered in Iraq, how much more are they hampered here? Are they going to start dropping clusterbombs into New York? And we've already seen in Iraq how difficult it is to root out an enemy in urban terrain who can destroy patrols with simple homemade bombs. I'm not saying we should do this, but if we really believed we must rise and take down the US govt, I'm saying it is possible -- and even easy. The only problem: Whatever follows it will probably be worse. But oh the fun we'd have. [/ QUOTE ] One thing you seem to be forgetting: When you and 15M other idiots rise up there will also be people like me who will enjoy shooting you for sport.
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#36
08-18-2007, 10:01 AM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There's one important point most everyone has missed regarding Iraq... Even with 21st century technology, the US military can't subdue a population that refuses to be subdued. And the lesson? There's always hope for revolution if we as a people would rise up. Tyranny can only prevail if we accept it. I'm going to Google how to build my own IEDs now... just in case. [/ QUOTE ] The Pentagon had a plan in place for invading Iraq long before Bush got his wish. 300k+ troops would be required. Bush disregarded the plan and Powell's advice and went with Rumsfeld's decision, who had the generals under his thumb. Powell was Sec of State at the time. Things would be so much different if we had sent in 300k from the get go. Even better if we never invaded. [/ QUOTE ] How many troops would you estimate would be required if 15 million US citizens rose up together? (Not that it is likely to happen, but *if* 5% of the population rose up, how would you stop them?) Imagine how much damage they could do. I live in a town of 15,000 with probably 10 police officers -- a group of 20 determined citizens could wipe out the police force in their homes before the morning paper came out. If this happened on widespread scale, there would be chaos. And if you think US is hampered in Iraq, how much more are they hampered here? Are they going to start dropping clusterbombs into New York? And we've already seen in Iraq how difficult it is to root out an enemy in urban terrain who can destroy patrols with simple homemade bombs. I'm not saying we should do this, but if we really believed we must rise and take down the US govt, I'm saying it is possible -- and even easy. The only problem: Whatever follows it will probably be worse. But oh the fun we'd have. [/ QUOTE ] One thing you seem to be forgetting: When you and 15M other idiots rise up there will also be people like me who will enjoy shooting you for sport. [/ QUOTE ] QFT
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#37
08-20-2007, 10:56 AM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
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jump to some conclusion that you want to rant about, you'll see that I already said I consider this mission ridiculous (in other words, I agree that the war is bad and you're ranting to the choir). [/ QUOTE ] i didnot lump you with the wars supporters. you are protesting to the wind. i know you do not agree with the war in iraq generally. we can agree that the us military predictably won the war quickly and very convincingly. but we will disagree about the army performing "VERY WELL" afterwards. we can agree however that the us army was placed inan "impossible" position by the DOD. [ QUOTE ] All I've said is that it seems to me the military has performed very well on this ridiculously hard mission. [/ QUOTE ]what mission??? the democratization of iraq is a failure. and its not even the ARMYS job to do that!! WHAT SEMBLANCE OF DEMOCRACY are you talking about??? iraq is still ruled by CLANS and RELIGIOUS AFFILIATIONS even MORE so than it was during sadams rule. that parliament is as impotent too. can u show otherwise oh and womens rights have taken a dozen steps backwards.... the rest of your post is venting against imaginary windmills. fwiw i enjoy your posts and youre showing a nice legal mind but seem a little paranoid.....
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#38
08-20-2007, 11:01 AM
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Re: Iraq: The Real Lesson for Americans
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for providing an example to my point. [/ QUOTE ]my pleasure..... [ QUOTE ] I always laugh when people get heated about the Iraq war (or I guess you could say politics in general) as if I just stole your car and refuse to give it back. [/ QUOTE ] and i always laugh when in a political discussion someone says WHATEVER!!! ive been hearing thisword and variations of it ever since the iraq war began whenever they run out of arguments which is quickly enough...... NO SWEAT OFF MY BALLS etc etc etc act locally think globally ike this way of doing politix but then youd laugh at it too..... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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