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#1
11-23-2007, 02:05 AM
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\"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
Instead of derailing a few other threads with this discussion I want to have it here.
I see this line used all the time in strat threads (or the variation "If you fold the river you should just fold the turn"), but I question if it's a theoretically sound piece of advice. Why can't I call the turn and then get more information on the river and change my mind? Why does a decision on one street mandate that I make the same decision on a future street? example hand 150bb stacks, 6 handed MP raises to 4bbs, folded to you in the BB and you call with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Flop T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 8bbs) You check, Villain bets 7bbs, you call [/b]Turn:[/b] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (pot 22 bbs) You check, Villain bets 19 bbs, you call River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] (pot 41 bbs) You check, Villain bets a lot, you fold. The river deuce doesn't change anything really, but I think we're ahead on the turn often but very rarely ahead on the river. In a situation like this can you profitably call the turn and still fold river depending on the card/his action? thoughts? 
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#2
11-23-2007, 02:11 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
IMO "If you call the turn you have to call river" sucks as strat advice. I think it should be "don't call the turn unless you know what to do on the river."
Usually that can be interpolated as dont call unless you can call because if you cant call on the river then bet-fold is usually a better line on the turn than check-call. V gets maximum play with his positional advantage when you check-call the turn, and if he understands this then he will be betting the river lightly knowing you will have to fold. So you end up folding the best hand more often, which totally sucks.
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#3
11-23-2007, 02:17 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
"If you call the turn you have to call river"
that line of thinking tilts me SO hard, and i constantly find myself writing posts trying to debunk it. it is hardly ever used correctly, and most of the those using it seemingly fail to realize that RANGES CHANGE ON THE RIVER, and not based just on the river card, but more importantly based on the action!
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#4
11-23-2007, 02:20 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
If you so choose to play this hand this passively (fine under certain circumstances) then yes, you need to call this river. I have absolutely no clue as to how you feel you are ahead on the turn yet behind on the river given that you have supplied no read. And the only read that would make me maaayyybe take this line is if his 3 barrel frequency is minimal to non existent.
Just to clarify, 'calling the turn = calling the river' does not always hold water. But in your example, it clearly does given that card. If you said the river was a J-K then obviously we can 'change our mind'.
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#7
11-23-2007, 02:49 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
The 'call turn then must call river' is only sound when 100% of villains turn betting range bets the river. This is clearly not the case in this example, so the rationale doesn't make sense.
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#9
11-23-2007, 05:53 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
I think BobboFitos said somewhere that if he calls turn with a made hand he'll (nearly) always call river if all the draws miss. But he plays high stakes.
I think theoretically speaking, it's very bad to call turn and fold river a lot. You are often giving away a lot of money to the worse hand if villain is a good aggressive player. But at SSNL, most TAGs don't make big bluffs. They are a product of a style designed to beat calling station donks. So they never fire the third barrel. So against them the line may often be the best one.
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#10
11-23-2007, 04:19 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
[ QUOTE ]
IMO "If you call the turn you have to call river" sucks as strat advice. I think it should be "don't call the turn unless you know what to do on the river." Usually that can be interpolated as dont call unless you can call because if you cant call on the river then bet-fold is usually a better line on the turn than check-call. V gets maximum play with his positional advantage when you check-call the turn, and if he understands this then he will be betting the river lightly knowing you will have to fold. So you end up folding the best hand more often, which totally sucks. [/ QUOTE ] My exact thoughts.
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