Professional No-Limit Hold 'em Volume 1 Review Thread

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
i said its something to consider, i didnt say u should fold everytime your raised. read much? i also said against good villians, since this is a live player who also bough tin short, this is likely not a good villisn. a situation where u might consider folding would be something like

5 10, 2000 deep, 6 max online game, you hold kk on the button. utg opens for 40, co raises to 140, you make it 350. good player in the bb cold calls. both others fold. flop t83. he checks. you bet and he raises. folding has to be considered a viable option here whether or not you en dup folding, even tho this book reccomends never folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]


nowhere in PNL does it say to never fold there.

PNL does point out that after your bet (of what? $600?) you've put approx half your stack in and will be getting 3-to-1 odds on the all-in raise, so you better be pretty sure you're beat before you fold.

[m3dude]

matt, none of my posts were meant to be disrespectful to you or sunny in any way, so i hope thats now how uve interpreted them.

[m3dude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

5 10, 2000 deep, 6 max online game, you hold kk on the button. utg opens for 40, co raises to 140, you make it 350. good player in the bb cold calls. both others fold. flop t83. he checks. you bet and he raises. folding has to be considered a viable option here whether or not you en dup folding, even tho this book reccomends never folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

so the pot is $885 on the flop. SPR = 1.86. you bet $600. you've now put 1/2 your stack in, and you're going to fold? to me, that really doesn't seem like something even worth considering, no matter how solid the villain is. the decision to bet on that flop in that situation should be a decision that you are willing to play for stacks.

if you are considering folding to a raise there vs that particular villain, you should just check.

edit: think about this situation with REM and SPR in mind. you reraise to create an SPR that is ideal vs UTG and CO. you're not expecting to get called by the BB, because he's so solid.

when he calls, if he's that solid, you have to basically put him on AA. he didn't have anywhere near the odds to call there with any other hand.

ok, so two things:

1) maybe an SPR of 1.5 (as opposed to, say, 2) is ideal vs this particular player with a top pair / overpair hand. if that's true, then you didn't get there preflop (because you weren't expecting to play vs this player), and you should only put in > 30% of your stack if you plan to commit.

2) if you put him specifically on AA, then you shouldn't commit unless there's a K on the flop (or you flop an OESFD or something).

the book doesn't aim to get us to stop thinking. it does an excellent job of providing a framework & a new way of organizing your thinking about how to make the best decision in every situation, starting preflop and continuing through the entire hand. each decision you make will have a huge impact on the decisions you'll be faced with later in the hand, and that's something you have to consider when making your decisions early in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol have u ever even played 5 10 before? from this post it seems like u have no clue how it plays

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. folding an overpair when you've put 1/2 your stack in is generally a bad idea regardless of the stakes or the characteristics of the game you're playing.

and even if you could somehow rationalize that the BB calling in that spot in a particular type of game with some hand other than AA is "solid", doing so would require that he be assigning a very wide range to your hand. if that's true, then that would even further support the notion that you should never consider folding to his c/r after putting in 1/2 your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

im more referring to the ranges your putting players on. 5 10 plays pretty aggro.

and when u have no outs(2), how much you have invested isnt as important as your equity v villians likely range aside from calculating odds on your call

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Flynn seems to be more critical of shortstacking than Mehta who seems neutral about it, while Miller has written extensively about its virtues.

[/ QUOTE ]


Here is my position:

1. Shortstacking is a good strategy against loose players playing larger stacks. It's also relatively easy.

2. Shortstacking takes a lot of the skill and fun out of the game. So I would like it banned.

3. Until shortstacking is banned, you should shortstack if that's your best way to profit.


PNL gives techniques to adapt to any stack size. It happens that short stacks take away a lot of the pain of playing top pair hands and is a viable way to avoid some common nl problems. And it works until the larger stacks adjust appropriately. Use it as you will.

[ryanj247]

[ QUOTE ]

im more referring to the ranges your putting players on. 5 10 plays pretty aggro.

and when u have no outs(2), how much you have invested isnt as important as your equity v villians likely range aside from calculating odds on your call

[/ QUOTE ]

NL1000 players, as you suggest, are aggro. they're not bad. if a solid player is "aggro", fine, he might raise in the BB there with a wide range. but if he's *calling* with QQ or less, that's not "aggro", that's just bad. what hand can correctly call there vs any reasonable range he'd put you on?

and even if you think he could justify a call there with TT or 88, to do so he would have to put you on a VERY wide range. if that's what he's done, then he'll make that same c/r with a lot more than just AA or a set. which leads to the same conclusion: you're not drawing to 2 outs nearly often enough to justify a fold.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]

It is probably semantics (although it may be telling that you used the term "commitment plan" and not the authors' "commitment threshold".

[/ QUOTE ]


We use both terms. The commitment threshold warns that the pot is about to get big. You really do not want to botch a big pot. So, it's time to step back and make a commitment plan before you do anything else. Namely, under what circumstances will you get all-in?

[m3dude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

im more referring to the ranges your putting players on. 5 10 plays pretty aggro.

and when u have no outs(2), how much you have invested isnt as important as your equity v villians likely range aside from calculating odds on your call

[/ QUOTE ]

NL1000 players, as you suggest, are aggro. they're not bad. if a solid player is "aggro", fine, he might raise in the BB there with a wide range. but if he's *calling* with QQ or less, that's not "aggro", that's just bad. what hand can correctly call there vs any reasonable range he'd put you on?

and even if you think he could justify a call there with TT or 88, to do so he would have to put you on a VERY wide range. if that's what he's done, then he'll make that same c/r with a lot more than just AA or a set. which leads to the same conclusion: you're not drawing to 2 outs nearly often enough to justify a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

a 4 bet there doesnt mean aa/kk. it could be a pure steal, ak, aa kk qq jj tt etc. so while he could have tt or 88, is he check raising with those? this is why i said folding has to be CONSIDERED. i never stated the play i believe is correct here. if he leads into you you also have a tough decision, a decision in which spr should not the the primary factor

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]

My question is, is this book the mind blowing book that made you say, "wow!!", and make you a professional level player as it promised? Or Not?? In other words can you take this knowledge and use it to turn pro as it was touted to be????? Let me know , thanks

[/ QUOTE ]


imo PNL1 alone is not sufficient to turn pro unless you can find weak games to play in.

[m3dude]

matt when is vol 2 eta?

on a side note, i think a book dedicated to shorthand nl play would sell pretty well.

[ryanj247]

[ QUOTE ]


a 4 bet there doesnt mean aa/kk. it could be a pure steal, ak, aa kk qq jj tt etc. so while he could have tt or 88, is he check raising with those? this is why i said folding has to be CONSIDERED. i never stated the play i believe is correct here. if he leads into you you also have a tough decision, a decision in which spr should not the the primary factor

[/ QUOTE ]

if he leads, SPR wouldn't be the primary factor, because you haven't decided to commit yet. with KK there, things such as: a) an A on the flop or b) a solid opponent making a strong lead, would certainly justify deciding not to commit, despite having created an ideal SPR situation preflop.

but once you bet, or raise, or even call a big bet on this flop, putting in > 30% of your stack, you're never going to fold. you've created an ideal SPR situation preflop, decided the flop and action dictated committing, and committed yourself with a big bet. you're not folding now.