Not convinced KK all-in preflop up to 100BB is good idea (at $0.50NL)

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
when do you ever face overbets?? facing pot odds 7:6???

[/ QUOTE ]
I've had it happen many times, and many people have posted about it. Look up "move of honor." See this thread, this thread, this thread, this thread, etc.

[ QUOTE ]

OPs point was to fold KK as a default


[/ QUOTE ]
He said it looks like KK loses money when it gets all-in preflop with stacks over about 60 BB. That is very, very different from saying to fold it, for reasons I have already pointed out.

[ QUOTE ]
a low stakes player WILL NOT be able to seperate the spots where to fold KK from the ones where he shouldn't


[/ QUOTE ]
Low stakes players aren't allowed to be thinking players? It looks like many are trying. You better go tell them to stop.

[PJo336]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about Winning overall with KK AIPF? Is that sufficient evidence? I can find you 100 players winning overall with KK aipf.

[/ QUOTE ]
That statistic is not directly relevant, as I pointed out earlier.

That KK is a winning hand overall does not mean you will win on average when you call all-in after a limp-reraise-push.

That AA is rare for your opponent to have does not mean it is rare when your opponent 4-bets from early position.

That you get called by weak hands does not mean passive players are pushing with weak hands.

If you want evidence that calling with KK in some situation is ok, find examples where people (not previously identifiable as maniacs) pushed with less than KK in those situations. Depending on the pot odds, you may need to find one hand worse than KK for every two times you see AA. If it's so obvious that calling all-in with KK is +EV, say at NL $100, it should be easy to find lots of these hands. Instead, people keep posting hands where someone with KK pushes, and someone else makes a bad call.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As has been discussed many times, you don't need to be 90% convinced that someone has AA to make it right to fold KK. Since you are less of a favorite over plausible worse hands (particularly Ax) than you are an underdog against AA, even a 50% chance that you are up against AA can make it right to fold against an overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree completely,

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you are wrong. This is a simple mathematical issue.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that you are a fav, whether slight or not, over Ax or other hands gives your KK more equity against a villians range. Knowing someone could have a lone A should not sway you more towards folding but in fact the other way.


[/ QUOTE ]
Adding Ax hands to your opponent's range obviously should make you more eager to call. However, that's not what was being discussed. Replacing QQ with AK in your opponent's range is bad for you.

Let's suppose your opponent will only push with AA or AK. You are ahead of 8 hands, and behind 6. However, you are less of a favorite over AK than you are an underdog against AA, which means you are behind your opponent's range. KK has only 47.1% equity against {AK,AA} despite being ahead 57% of the time. It's not as dramatic as having a medium pair against a range of {TT+, AJ+, KQ}, where you are a 4:3 underdog despite being a favorite over 3/4 of the time, but the same logic applies.

AA wins 82% against KK. KK wins 74% against {QQ,AK}. If you are up against AA 50% of the time, and {QQ,AK} 50% of the time, then your equity is 46%, and you need about 7:6 pot odds to call, which you don't have against some overbets. My statement was correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

you sir are a nit and put ur opponent on the same nit ranges

[Paxinor]

well have some view for practice here...

most of those people know that you can create situations where its ok to fold Kings.

But answers like yours confuse NL50 players. they do not know math as good as you do and they do not know poker as good as you do

so if a NL50 guy asks me: what to do with KK i say: move it, always.

sometimes he will make a mistake by calling/moving it. but its better than exlain him some strange situation where its ok to fold and he goes to the table and misinterpret the next situation.

90% of the time its +EV to call KK or shove it. you will have enough FEQ if you shove and have good enough pot odds to call after you've 4bet for 30BB and this covers most of the situation a NL50 player with 50k hands livetime played will encounter

so for 100BB you should almost always go all the way, and there are mathematical reasons to it.

you can always make up a situation where its ok to fold second nuts but what does the NL50 player care who does tons of mistakes bigger than the 10 bigblinds you loose when you call your kings in the couple of spots its ok to fold.

i know that "always" literarly means a 100% and but if you pick the statement apart because you argue that there is some hypothetical situation where a tight player pushes 100BB in your open raise then you are way to much into math... and way to less in an NL50 player's mind!

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
so now you know why you never fold KK to a push. there is so much dead money in the pot that he needs only a worse hand occasionally...


[/ QUOTE ]
This is wrong. See the Farha versus Greenstein hand. Farha had about $12,500 in the pot which he followed with about $178,000 more. See the many threads discussing 4-bet shoves, or even earlier pushes.

[ QUOTE ]

besides: if you fold everything to a push other than aces, there will be people pushing into you with loads of crap... and you will lose A LOT of money.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is clearly wrong, as I pointed out before on this thread. In all of the situations where I might fold KK preflop, AA makes up a significant portion of my range, so trying to bluff me is an expensive mistake against my range.

It really seems you are moving the discussion backwards. You aren't bothering to avoid making statements that have already been refuted. You aren't even bothering to write coherently. Responding to you looks like a waste of time.

[Gonso]

This thread is starting to derail a little bit, for those of you with large NLHE databases I'd still be interested in seeing the generaly threshold where calling with KK because unprofitbale on average at the various levels.

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when do you ever face overbets?? facing pot odds 7:6???

[/ QUOTE ]
I've had it happen many times, and many people have posted about it. Look up "move of honor." See this thread, this thread, this thread, this thread, etc.

[ QUOTE ]

OPs point was to fold KK as a default


[/ QUOTE ]
He said it looks like KK loses money when it gets all-in preflop with stacks over about 60 BB. That is very, very different from saying to fold it, for reasons I have already pointed out.

[ QUOTE ]
a low stakes player WILL NOT be able to seperate the spots where to fold KK from the ones where he shouldn't


[/ QUOTE ]
Low stakes players aren't allowed to be thinking players? It looks like many are trying. You better go tell them to stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh, this is a scenario where having info may be worse than having none. there have been some threads in msnl/hsnl where the consensus was to fold kk pf, but they involved deep stacks and/or pristine reads/history.

[PJo336]

u are taking the farha greenstein thing a little too seriously, the picture was an extreme version of the joke to never fold. No one is advising anything above 100bb.

and gonzo i agree, but how can this kind of statistic be found and put together? Maybe we can get pokey on the job

[Gonso]

You'd have to filter out everything but KK hands that CALLED preflop, then we'd have to address the $ that you'd find in the pot already. You'd have to separate them by limit, then there's all kinds of things like table image and whatnot, so it's not really easy and would require a lot of data.

On a side note, I think a more useful discussion would relate to AK in this spot rather than KK.

[mdm13]

[ QUOTE ]







90% of the time its +EV to call KK or shove it. you will have enough FEQ if you shove and have good enough pot odds to call after you've 4bet for 30BB and this covers most of the situation a NL50 player with 50k hands livetime played will encounter


[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, why do we want fold equity with kings? The only hand we want to fold isn't folding.

[Gonso]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]







90% of the time its +EV to call KK or shove it. you will have enough FEQ if you shove and have good enough pot odds to call after you've 4bet for 30BB and this covers most of the situation a NL50 player with 50k hands livetime played will encounter


[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, why do we want fold equity with kings? The only hand we want to fold isn't folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't, unless he or you were short enough where his odds would actually justify calling to suckout, which would be a pretty freak situation if you started with 100bb.