Hard to quantify sports question

Dids · #1 08-01-2007, 03:03 PM

At lunch today there was sport fishing on the TV at the bar.

I've started spending a lot of time watching various forms of racing.

The common question here:

In sports like this (I think poker kinda counts) do we know how much of the seperation between normal humans, the good, and the excellent is actually innate skill?

How much of the difference between say... Kasey Khane and Tony Stewart is driven by the infrastructure (garage, pit, crew chief, car) that supports them and how much of that is just pure raw talent? If you give the avg guy off the street 5 years to learn, and similar support to Tony, how close do you get to his results?

For sport fishing, is anybody really just a flat better fisherman, or is it more about gear/training/luck?

I think we all realize that with enough study and practice, you can be a pretty solid winner in poker, but also that there's a few intangibles that end to push people into the super upper echelon of players.

What other sports are like this? Who here is an expert on these sports that can explain to the rest of us why we're right/wrong?

jstnrgrs · #2 08-01-2007, 05:34 PM

I hate both of these "sports" and I don't know much about them, but if I were a race fan, I would view it as a team sport. So I wouldn't be rooting just Tony Stewart, but for the entire Tony Stewart team. If you consider all that that involves, then the whole team put together is probably on a different level from the other teams, and it doesn't matter how much tallent one member of the team (the driver or anyone else) has.

ThaSaltCracka · #3 08-01-2007, 05:41 PM

Tony Stewart is a good racer as he has won at multiple levels driving different vehicles. Why is he so good, I have no clue. Perhaps he is able to control his heart rate and remain relaxed.

For a sport like fishing, it strikes me as a hobby that requires a lot of experience to be good at. Skill? Not sure, but surely experience. That could be one thing that seperates the really good from the average in sports or events that don't require a lot (if any athleticism). So basically if someone does nothing else in their life, or dedicates a ton of time to something like that, they can be good at it.

Dids · #4 08-01-2007, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tony Stewart is a good racer as he has won at multiple levels driving different vehicles. Why is he so good, I have no clue. Perhaps he is able to control his heart rate and remain relaxed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would also explain why he ends up on the best teams .

Kneel B4 Zod · #5 08-01-2007, 05:42 PM

only partially meanigfull anecdote:

Ted Williams is one of the best hitters ever, he is in the Fishing Hall of Fame, and was reputed to be an elite fighter pilot. All of these (I think) require pretty superior hand/eye coordination and timing skills.

it's probably not an accident that he was so much better at these activities than almost everyone else...which leads me to believe that at the upper levels of competition, innate ability is very important.

DrewDevil · #6 08-01-2007, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
only partially meanigfull anecdote:

Ted Williams is one of the best hitters ever, he is in the Fishing Hall of Fame, and was reputed to be an elite fighter pilot. All of these (I think) require pretty superior hand/eye coordination and timing skills.

it's probably not an accident that he was so much better at these activities than almost everyone else...which leads me to believe that at the upper levels of competition, innate ability is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Ted Williams is the actual guy John Wayne played in all those movies." -- can't remember who said it, but one of my favorite quotes

Anyway, I think golf is a sport where coaching and practice practice practice are far more important than "talent." There are some really great golfers (Justin Leonard, Tim Herron, to name 2) who seem to have zero athletic talent and just grew up on the range. I would imagine this might be true for race car driving also, bowling, fishing, etc.

But in sports like basketball and baseball, I think size/athletic ability/"talent" is a far more important factor.

Hoya · #7 08-01-2007, 06:29 PM

Race car drivers are less likely to have more far innate skill than the average human as compared to say, basketball players, because so many more people try the latter.

If everyone in the US wanted to be a NASCAR driver growing up and got the opportunity to try, the field would be totally different. In basketball, not so much - people have a much better idea of where they stand there.

Edit - I see that I didn't really respond to the question. Whoops.

JACK CUST · #8 08-01-2007, 06:50 PM

Best way to measure driver talent vs. well supported in NASCAR that I can think of is to compare his success to his teammates since every major team is a multi car team. Obviously there are plenty of caveats, but it's a start.

Avalanche333 · #9 08-01-2007, 06:58 PM

Like he said, looking at teammates is a decent indicator. Joe Gibbs Racing has Denny Hamlin, Tony Stewart, and JJ Yeley. The first 2 have been consistently good, while JJ sucks ass. Also, the car JJ drives used to kick ass with Bobby Labonte, so that's another indication that the drivers play a much larger role than most give them credit for.

Another note, is JJ Yeley sucks for calling himself JJ when the dude's name is Chris Beltram Hernandez Yeley. Die.

Dudd · #10 08-01-2007, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Race car drivers are less likely to have more far innate skill than the average human as compared to say, basketball players, because so many more people try the latter.

If everyone in the US wanted to be a NASCAR driver growing up and got the opportunity to try, the field would be totally different. In basketball, not so much - people have a much better idea of where they stand there.

Edit - I see that I didn't really respond to the question. Whoops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this does answer the question though. Probably 90% of the people I know at some level have played basketball, football, baseball, some sport. So, the elite of the elite at those sports are drawn from a pretty large pool. I have never met anyone who raced, not dirt track, stock cars, nothing. Maybe this is a regional thing, I'm from upstate NY, who knows, but like you said, it's beyond questioning that the talent pools from which the racing elite are chosen is significantly smaller than something like basketball, so the natural ability of the elite is much closer to the average person than other major sports. So pretty much the less popular the sport, the closer to the average person the best at that sport is.