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  #11  
Old 11-16-2007, 12:05 PM
cjk73 cjk73 is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

Check raise is the correct play in LIMIT holdem, no? Forces the field of drawing hands to call 2 cold.

In any event, this is a great topic, a follow on question I have for NO LIMIT is in those instances where you have position, the advice is to bet but what if there is a bet to you? Are we raising, calling, folding? Calling can't be right because now the chasers may be getting the right price. Are we back to folding as we would do out of position? And just to be clear, I am asking in the context of the original post (weak top pair, drawy board, NL, and multiple villains).
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2007, 12:56 PM
Joey2Cards Joey2Cards is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

I think the main thing you have to realise here is that the players are calling stations!!!! Remember? Means you can happily check-fold this one and bet when you have a more secure hand.

As for your question, cjk73, its important to realise that when someone bets to you, you no longer have effective position. The guy to the right of the better has position. It depends on how many players are on your left between you and the better, how much the player bet, how often you've seen them bet into a multiway pot when there are draws on etc etc. The more players left to act the more you're gonna want to get outta there.

I think you're going to have to be more specific.
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2007, 01:03 PM
cjk73 cjk73 is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

Fair enough, and I think your point about relative (vs absolute) position answers it. But for sake of clarity, if you are 5th to act of five players and player 2 bets, and 3 and 4 call, you still have absolute position and "pretty good" relative position. Are we raising? Calling still seems weakish but raising has less fold equity then when we have no callers yet. Finally folding can't be right given the pot size.
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  #14  
Old 11-16-2007, 01:31 PM
Albert Moulton Albert Moulton is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

In a multi-way, unraised pot, TPWK as first to act is a hand with too much in the way of reverse implied odds to play strongly, even if you suspect others behind you might be drawing.

I usually c/f. In fact, I'd be more inclined to bet an open ended straight draw for the size of a small pot here than TPWK because (1) if no body has anything (unlikely, but possible), I'll win, and (2) if I get callers and hit my straight, then I now have a big pot with guys who will probably call another (much bigger) bet on the turn, and maybe even on call an all-in on the river (with two-pair or a lower straight, etc).

But with TPWK in a spot like this, I just c/f. If the hand is checked around the the turn is a blank, I'll fire there to pick up the orphaned pot with top pair.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2007, 02:43 PM
PafficusiaNights PafficusiaNights is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

I agree with everything woolygimp has said. The specific example you have givin is a very marginal situation in a 5-6way pot with a bunch of loose passive fish and you'll never know where your at. That being said, in general, your friend is giving you bad advice. In the type of game your playing I would always lead out with my strong hands and bet them the whole way. In most cases you would rather get called in a few spots then check raising and taking it down right there. This assumes your bet sizing is correct.

On a side note- 3 years of pro poker and 3 losing sessions in a row is the worst downswing you've had?? I'd say you should just keep doing whatever you're doing.
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  #16  
Old 11-16-2007, 03:35 PM
TacitMike TacitMike is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

[ QUOTE ]
On a side note- 3 years of pro poker and 3 losing sessions in a row is the worst downswing you've had?? I'd say you should just keep doing whatever you're doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to say the same thing.

This situation is c/f for me almost 100% of the time.
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  #17  
Old 11-17-2007, 06:27 PM
saefrog saefrog is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

After looking at everyone's post it seems the majority feel I should bet out here, knowing that I'm going to get called. My thoughts were (following Hellmuth's book) that betting here give me information on where I stand. If a good player calls a pot size bet, I usual put him on top pair better kicker and he would prob never limp with 1010 or jj. He could have slow played Aces but not likely. If a chaser/calling station is calling he either has a draw or middle pair etc. At this table the players were calling 6 times the blinds raises with everything suited, 26Clubs, 310Diamonds, 25 offsuit, etc. I'm serious here guys.

As far as my loosing streak being 3 in a row. I play as my part-time job on the weekends and my friend plays everyday professionally. I seem to have a tight/aggressive style while he plays a little looser and limps in with garbage hands to "bust" someone. The only hands I limp in with are in late position and suited connectors, small pairs, and suited aces. He will be play 2 5 off on the button. I seem to bet and raise more and he will let players bet into him as he calls more. I'm thinking of adapting his style but I'm not for sure. He is also the best at reading tells that I've ever seen.
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  #18  
Old 11-17-2007, 06:46 PM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

[ QUOTE ]
After looking at everyone's post it seems the majority feel I should bet out here, knowing that I'm going to get called.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you read the same thread I did? I don't recall anyone saying to bet out, while several people said to check and fold. People offered quite a few hypothetical situations in which it would be right to bet when there might be draws, but a low TPWK out of position against several players was not one of them.
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  #19  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:35 PM
Abbaddabba Abbaddabba is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

you've been playing professionally for 3 years at 2/5NL, and you're posting in a forum asking strangers with (as far as you know) zero credentials for advice on how to play top pair.


something isnt right there.
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  #20  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:38 PM
vaughn345 vaughn345 is offline
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Default Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????

you can punish maniac by check-raising, but don't blow up the pot OOP with such a weak hand on the flop, or else you'll find yourself having to fold on the river like you did.
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