Adjusting to Perennial Cold-Callers

[AlanBostick]

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Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.

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Alan,
Although I'm not fond of open-limping or playing small pairs up front, I think a table where there's five-way action for two bets is exactly the right situation to play those baby pairs. You've just got to be able to get away from the hand if you don't flop a set.

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The odds of flopping a set are 7.5:1 against. When you figure the likelihood of flopping a set and it not holding up, it's more like 10:1 against. In order to profitably pay two bets before the flop with a small pair in a five-way pot, one has to hope to extract five big bets in post-flop action from the other players in the hand.

For a single bet in a multiway pot, it's easy to get the needed postflop action to turn a profit. It is rather less so when the preflop investment is two bets.

Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you call here? Really?

[Man of Means]

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Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you call here? Really?

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That's table dependent. usually fold, but when you are more likely to see the turn for free, and to get action when you hit your set, call more. 22 kinda sucks because it doesn't do well in making straights or winning UI. But pocket fives+, ah, how can you resist?

An awesome situation is when you have a loose table and you're to the right of a LAG. Limp in with 88-44 and checkraise the field if you flop your set. Otherwise, if you miss but you sense weakness all around you can bet into the LAG and let him raise to protect your hand for you.

[brettbrettr]

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Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 22. Do you call here? Really?

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Ya. Relative position is goot.

[GreywolfNYC]

Sorry for the almost duplicate posts. I was editing one and had some kind of computer glitch.

[bdaddy]

This game is so juicy it's silly. I think Amulet's advice is spot on for this game, except to adjust your preflop standards to a loose aggressive game. Isolating EP limpers just isnt going to happen most of the time.
Alan- why are you concerned about someone cold calling your AK raise with KQos or QJos in small pots? This is exactly what makes this game profitable. There are some LAG's who play fairly well after the flop, but not enough to take away from the sick profitabilty in this game.
I would just continue to play solid poker in this game and maybe look for some marginal situations to float bad players and outplay them after the flop and recoup some of the implied odds. Also, use of the OVERS buttons, which are often in play, can help to quickly make up some of the implied odds in these marginal situations, like your 22 example.

[amulet]

maybe, but it if difficult to make up for a large error like calling raises cold on a regular basis. my guess is they are not winning players.

[DeathDonkey]

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suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 22. Do you call here? Really?

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Every single time. In the game you describe I would probably call two bets with it given a raiser and a single caller if there were players to act behind me.

Sounds to me like you realize isolation plays aren't going to get the money here (things like one limper you raise A3o on the button) but buckling down for a wild ride and playing a lot of hands that do well multiway will. Get in there with your T8s after a raise and two callers, call closing the action in the BB with 74o getting 11:1, etc.

I think you are probably playing too tight and those props / pros you see are playing better.

-DeathDonkey

[Soviet Exile]

I play in this game occasionally too. I find the amount of cold calling to be quite shocking.

[geormiet]

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Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.

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Alan,
Although I'm not fond of open-limping or playing small pairs up front, I think a table where there's five-way action for two bets is exactly the right situation to play those baby pairs. You've just got to be able to get away from the hand if you don't flop a set.

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The odds of flopping a set are 7.5:1 against. When you figure the likelihood of flopping a set and it not holding up, it's more like 10:1 against. In order to profitably pay two bets before the flop with a small pair in a five-way pot, one has to hope to extract five big bets in post-flop action from the other players in the hand.

For a single bet in a multiway pot, it's easy to get the needed postflop action to turn a profit. It is rather less so when the preflop investment is two bets.

Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you call here? Really?

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The times you win and lose with a set are combined together to give you an overall expectation. You don't need to "adjust 7.5:1 to 10:1 to account for the times you lose. I have idea how you came up with needing to earn 5 big bets back postflop...there is nearly that in the pot already.

Not calling two with any pair knowing there are at least 5 players in is ludicrous.

[*TT*]

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Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.

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Alan,
Although I'm not fond of open-limping or playing small pairs up front, I think a table where there's five-way action for two bets is exactly the right situation to play those baby pairs. You've just got to be able to get away from the hand if you don't flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of flopping a set are 7.5:1 against. When you figure the likelihood of flopping a set and it not holding up, it's more like 10:1 against. In order to profitably pay two bets before the flop with a small pair in a five-way pot, one has to hope to extract five big bets in post-flop action from the other players in the hand.

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I found an error in your thought process. If you are getting 5:1 preflop you must also factor in your implied odds of getting 2 more bets in a multi-way pot post flop.. which is a fairly common occurrence. So if the pot is 10:2 pre-flop feel free to cold call with your small pocket pairs, its a good move when you have position.

Also you don't need to get 5 big bets post flop, that would be ridiculous to expect that. You need to expect just 1 big bet (2 small bets) postflop to get 7:1 which is a fair expectation to give your preflop call a positive expected value to catch a set on the flop. If you don't improve and you see too much action on the flop its OK to release the hand knowing there was 7 or more bets in the pot which made your one bet investment (or conversely 14 or more bets in the pot which made your two bet investment) worthwhile.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]