aces in stud 8

[wheatrich]

Based on recent results I'm wondering if there's a monster flaw in my game.

Basically I'm wondering when to treat aces like queens and the like even in stud 8. I've been in quite a few hands even multiway knowing my aces were the best hand on every street and firing accordingly till river which of course I get sucked out on by mostly garbage.

Should be treating aces just like I do kings or queens? I was thinking aces should be my biggest money maker in terms of dollars but that has proven to be the exact opposite so far and now I've been wondering if in fact I'm the fish in these games which based on what I keep seeing (even out of the "good players") is incredibly hard to believe. (that and I'd like to win once rolled up vs a hand like 842 HU sigh)

I'd like to think I'm just on another monster downswing but I can't help but feeling maybe I'm playing the hands wrong by being aggressive even with aces versus obvious razz type hands and the tens type pairs because that's not working out right now and I still find it just hard to believe that even aces are a long term loser in this game. I really should be doing a bunch of equity calculations to really figure this out.

This latest run has seriously killed my desire to keep this up so I'm almost done--maybe this game is just unbeatable despite all the idiots in it cause I can't win--sigh.

[jester710]

This is hard to answer without specific information. If you're still firing with unimproved aces on the later streets in multiway pots, then you're probably giving a good deal of money away. It's very hard to win a lone pair in a multiway pot, and damn near impossible to scoop, so you prolly want to shift to c/c or c/f mode in those spots. Sometimes you want to slow way down even with aces up, depending on the boards and the action.

Basically, if you can't get heads up early in the hand, keep one hand on the eject button. The only time I like to keep firing with unimproved aces is with a backdoor low draw, or at least a board that looks like I have a solid low going.

[Hamlet]

I think you need to separate Aces with a big kicker from Aces with a small kicker. Small is much better.

In a multiway pot, you need ways for your hand to win the whole pot. That little kicker can back you into a low. You don't want to put a lot of money in on the later streets with just one pair, but one pair and a low draw is quite a bit better.

[OLDMONGOO$E]

[ QUOTE ]
This is hard to answer without specific information. If you're still firing with unimproved aces on the later streets in multiway pots, then you're probably giving a good deal of money away. It's very hard to win a lone pair in a multiway pot, and damn near impossible to scoop, so you prolly want to shift to c/c or c/f mode in those spots. Sometimes you want to slow way down even with aces up, depending on the boards and the action.

Basically, if you can't get heads up early in the hand, keep one hand on the eject button. The only time I like to keep firing with unimproved aces is with a backdoor low draw, or at least a board that looks like I have a solid low going.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post

[djk123]

It'd be helpful if you posted specific AA hands in order to see how you are playing them. But in general you should be playing AA very aggressively. It would be a big mistake imo to treat AA like KK or QQ. It's just such a better hand.

On 3rd with AAbaby I'm always putting the last raise in or calling a cap even multiway. With AAbig I might slow down or 3rd if it's really multiway, but still almost always raising/reraising if it's HU.

Hard to comment on specific hands in general. I think it would be easier if you provided some example hands. But you should rarely ever be folding Aces up.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
This latest run has seriously killed my desire to keep this up so I'm almost done--maybe this game is just unbeatable despite all the idiots in it cause I can't win--sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]
Idiots are not unbeatable, otherwise they wouldn't be idiots, they'd be brilliant. The rake can make many small stakes games tough to beat, but the real difference is you have to adjust your style into "idiot beater" gear. There are a lot of good suggestions already in this thread so I won't repeat them.

[AlanBostick]

There are two differences between aces and queens in stud/8. Both are huge.

First, there are no possible overpairs to aces. If you start with queens, and the villain on a low draw catches a king on fourth street, there are now 3 cards she can catch that put her ahead of you for high on fith or sixth in addition to the twenty cards that put her low draw in reach of scoring. And if the villain started with an ace in her hand, that doubles the number of cards she can hit to outdraw your high hand with just one pair.

Secondly, if you have two queens in your hand, those are two bricks your opponent cannot catch, and so her low draw is that much stronger. If on the other hand you have two aces in your hand, the deck is depleted of the two best possible cards she can hit. If she already has an ace in her hand, there's only one ace left for her to catch up to you for high. If she doesn't have an ace, there are only two left for her to fill in her low.

Aces aren't a royal road to scooping, or even to winning half a pot. But they are much stronger than queens or kings, because they make the best possible pair, two pair, etc., but because they are the lowest cards in the deck as well and are therefore a start to build the smoothest low. Queens or kings just can't do that.

[roggles]

I'd like to add a third difference, an ace in the door can easily outplay split queens or kings. The split Qs or Ks won't know if the ace is going for high or low, so it's just suicide to play Qs or Ks against an ace door.

AA+baby is basically the best starting hand except a rolled up hands. I prefer it over 456 sooted.

The similarity between AA and KK is that if you catch high cards you are playing a high hand only, and sometimes you will have to release against a straighty low board.

[wheatrich]

I suppose you guys are looking for a hand like this

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls

4th Street - (17.38 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

5th Street - (16.69 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls___calls

6th Street - (32.69 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (36.69 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

Total pot: (39.69 BB)

Reads--seat 5 is one of the funniest players to play with. He loves to raise to try to get it HU (never works) with absolutely nothing (b/c he's really good at making ridiculous suckouts). (he'll play crap for awhile, then play fine, then play horrible again--it's pretty funny the swings he goes through--bigger than mine)

btw--if you didn't notice I got runner runnered by that guy in this pot (I should run the odds on him scooping that vs what we had on fifth and sixth so I can laugh so hard) fun game--(wish I had realized seat 6 had a four flush but he wasn't good enough to give him credit for that)

I did slow down but I don't know how I can fold given those players and those boards. (oh and winning aces vs aces when I have the best hand for five streets would be nice once--they pair and I have to fold river (or donk call) it's so annoying)

It's been mostly those type of hands--ones they catch total garbage and stay in till rivers and I end up not even splitting the pot--rather annoying. Running the equity calculations my raises/calls were correct in these type of pots but of course since it's stud it's high variance for sure. I guess I'm just mad it's not me winning lol.

(wasn't talking about the straight low boards--even the ragged ones like 82A and the like they'll get there)

Rolled up doesn't win as much as I keep thinking it should either--I guess it's welcome to limit hell poker sometimes. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

edit--didn't notice I had a FD on sixth either--missed some raises there but I would have lost more money if I had.

This obviously is the highlight hand but basically this stuff three way (guy chasing low only vs guy chasing high only and I'm ahead both ways on sixth and get scooped) is quite a huge hit to my psych at the moment. Perhaps I shouldn't be doing this anymore. It's not the $ obviously I've made more than that but I can't see how I can subject myself to much more of this. I guess playing fine (okay the mistakes I do make annoy me like a really bad call down I made versus what I was darn sure was a flush but I had noticed quite a few dead cards so I stupidly called down even though I knew--I'm sure we've all done that though--I just hate making mistakes but running equity calculations in all the hands I was in where I lost giant pots with aces my play was correct--I suppose I just wish variance went the good way for a change but I might not play long enough to see it)

[jester710]

Jesus H. Vishnu, where was this? Is this a standard hand for the other players besides seat 5? If it were me, I'd say on 4th that I'm either catching good on 5th or getting the hell out of there. Seat 7's either got the last ace or a pretty good low draw, and seat 6 could easily be rolled up, leaving you 1 out if you're lucky.

So yeah, fifth's a fold, I think, but once you call there you're tied to it after catching the two-way draw on sixth. River's a clear fold. FWIW, if it was just you and seat 5, I think you're going the whole way.

Edited to add: The more I look at it, the more I absolutely hate the three (!) calls on 5th. Even against complete maniacos, you're not gonna be very far ahead against 3 of them. Save those bets for better spots.

Re-edited to add: I don't raise sixth either. It won't push anybody out, and you're not a favorite to scoop, plus either hand you hit (flush/low) could be no good if you hit them. Sixth is probably my favorite street from this hand.