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  #31  
Old 08-01-2007, 06:01 AM
surfdoc surfdoc is offline
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Default Re: turn action

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Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?

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Given the fact that JT more than twice as likley as 88 and 99 combined, do you really think this is an optimal strategy? Does he ever expect me to fold 88 and 99 in this size pot?
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  #32  
Old 08-01-2007, 06:13 AM
bakku bakku is offline
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Default Re: turn action

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the fact that JT more than twice as likley as 88 and 99 combined, do you really think this is an optimal strategy? Does he ever expect me to fold 88 and 99 in this size pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

4-betting to get 88/99 to fold is ridiculous. and not that it matters, but i'm wondering if you would have called with JTo preflop? if not, there's only 4 combos of JT
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  #33  
Old 08-01-2007, 11:12 AM
surfdoc surfdoc is offline
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Default Re: turn action

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the fact that JT more than twice as likley as 88 and 99 combined, do you really think this is an optimal strategy? Does he ever expect me to fold 88 and 99 in this size pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

4-betting to get 88/99 to fold is ridiculous. and not that it matters, but i'm wondering if you would have called with JTo preflop? if not, there's only 4 combos of JT

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I be folding JTo? I think I would usually call getting 5.5:1 although I think I fold QTo,KTo, and ATo. Not sure if that is right. I know I should take out some hands from the pokerstove since Surf coldcalled but too lazy.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.663% 36.59% 02.09% 12856778808 733473764.33 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 20.773% 20.44% 00.34% 7181788639 119952591.33 { JTo }
Hand 2: 40.564% 38.50% 02.09% 13525130994 733120025.33 { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AQo+ }
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  #34  
Old 08-01-2007, 12:02 PM
Bicycles_Biatch Bicycles_Biatch is offline
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Default Re: turn action

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[ QUOTE ]
RESULTS? I'm bitting at the bit... it sucks BTW... but if you fold the river that's probably a mistake. Especially since you noted that this notable has gotten out of line a couple times during the session... just hope this is one of those times.

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When did I say that surf has been out of line?

Think about this hand from surf's perspective for a second and narrow down my range. I CR a tight player and a very good player on the flop. Then I check/3 bet the turn when the flush draw misses but the most likely hand I could have combinatorically hits (JT). My line has to look so super strong yet he doesn't care and 4 bets me like his life depends on it. Why exactly is that? Does he think that 55 or 88 is the nuts? In addition, if he has 55 or 88 how sick will it be when he gets his arse 5 bet?

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you said in your original description that he wasn't tilting but had gotten out of line a couple times and got caught firing on all 3 streets... maybe this is one of those times and he is trying to move you off your hand.
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  #35  
Old 08-01-2007, 12:12 PM
ProfessorBen ProfessorBen is offline
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Default Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er

Posting blind.
I like the attempt to C/R the turn. You have solid position relative to the field. I think the one concern we should have is that if UTG+1 is aware that CO is a solid player, his coldcallx2 should set off alarms, but that won't stop UTG+1 from betting TT+.

I call this turn. UTG+1's only holding that we are worried about is QQ and we're not pushing him off of it anyways. He's either dead money or crushing us, so there's no reason to push him out and CO has enough holdings that we are ahead of (98s/88) that we need to get to showdown. My plan depends on whether UTG+1 folds now, but I am c/c most rivers and leading if it's 3-handed and a board pair+flush comes.

I struggle in these spots too.

Edit: Meh. Right after I posted this, but before I'm about to read the topic, it occured to me that UTG+1 might also have AKhh/AKcc/AQcc, which we would love to 3-bet. I'm torn. Gunna read. Enlgihten me, folks.
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  #36  
Old 08-02-2007, 01:06 PM
Bicycles_Biatch Bicycles_Biatch is offline
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Default Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er

surfdoc... looks like this one is going to die... how did the story end?
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  #37  
Old 08-02-2007, 04:49 PM
surfdoc surfdoc is offline
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Default RESULTS

So, here is what happened. I 3 bet the turn and when Surf 4 bet I was really sure I was up against the nuts. I planned on donking a rivered boat and folding unimproved. The river was so scary and he slides a bet out in tempo. Now I have all the confirmation that I need and muck 99 face up. I normally don't do this but in this case it felt right for a couple of reasons. First and most importantly was that the players at the table knew we were friends and I didn't want them to think I jammed up the turn and then folded for 1 bet as some sort of collusion to push the EP player off his hand. Secondly, I wanted Surf to know ho badly I owned him. He swears that he was checking behind his JT on a paired river so that he could own me.

Now, here is the funny (not to me but nevertheless funny) part. Surf is a live noobie. I have been leaning on him pretty hard after each session to close up his tellbox and avoid some mistakes. It turns out that he was eating when the initial raise came in and didn't see it. When he put out 2 bets he thought he was open raising from the CO which explains why he can have JT here. He says he would never have played it suited or not against this guys raise and I agree. Anyway, earlier in the week he had done stuff like this and been all embarassed and made a big scene at the table but I explained to him how important it is to avoid stuff like that and not to talk so much at the table. So, basically I got bad beat by my own instruction. The whole hand turns into a beat that was never supposed to happen when I flop a set of 9s against A9 and win a huge pot.

As far as the turn and river play, I think it is correct to 3 bet the turn since I can only get 4 bet by the nuts and I can get away from it on the river. If this was against some other commerce goof then the hand plays a bit differently.
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  #38  
Old 08-02-2007, 05:27 PM
Surf Surf is offline
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Default Re: RESULTS

[ QUOTE ]

Now, here is the funny (not to me but nevertheless funny) part. Surf is a live noobie. I have been leaning on him pretty hard after each session to close up his tellbox and avoid some mistakes. It turns out that he was eating when the initial raise came in and didn't see it. When he put out 2 bets he thought he was open raising from the CO which explains why he can have JT here. He says he would never have played it suited or not against this guys raise and I agree. Anyway, earlier in the week he had done stuff like this and been all embarassed and made a big scene at the table but I explained to him how important it is to avoid stuff like that and not to talk so much at the table. So, basically I got bad beat by my own instruction. The whole hand turns into a beat that was never supposed to happen when I flop a set of 9s against A9 and win a huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was pretty funny, especially because i might not even raise JTo from the CO in this game (it was that crazy) but i picked up on a folding tell from the button. Also i slid the 8 chips out there like it was exactly what I meant to do (thanks surfdoc for the instruction, haha) and even after i noticed the UTG raise I was pretty proud that i didn't act startled or anything.

Surf
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