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  #1  
Old 10-18-2007, 02:00 PM
the machine the machine is offline
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Default out of action person bets, angleshoot????

i will use hero to describe the person who is not me but im watching this at the table. im not sure wether you would consider this an angleshoot or wether this would just be standard play using reads and/or explioting someone elses idiot tendencies.

foxwoods 1-2NL

tight player to heros right opens preflop to 10$, hero calls and loose guy out of the blinds calls. 3 handed to flop

hero holds AK

flop K 8 7 2 spades.
loose guy checks
tight guy bets 20.
hero fumbles around with chips for a little and loose guy mins it to 40 while its not his action. this has happened 2 hands ago as well where he acted out of turn.

hero wanted to raise but would it be considered an angle by just calling so he raises getting the tight guy to call then put in your raise?

i asked the floor if the guy who raised is still bound to the raise and he said as it stands now the bet does not stand because it isnt a legal action. but foxwoods plans to change this rule in the near future.

i personally dont think this is an angle because its the same as using a read or the way he looks when he will raise to base your action on the most +EV. this is all dependent on if the cardroom consideres this as a binding bet.
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Old 10-18-2007, 02:05 PM
chucky chucky is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

Not an angleshoot because hero did not intend to cause the guy to act out of turn. That said, if the loose guy does not raise after hero calls, then hero is SOL. hero shouldnt be able to argue that loose guy has to raise.
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Old 10-18-2007, 02:08 PM
the machine the machine is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

floor at foxwoods said that they will soon change this rule to when its OOP players action the raise will stand to avoid possible angleshoots. so as a player you should just call tight guys flop bet knowing the loose guy has to put the raise in, correct? and we are not angling anyone?
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  #4  
Old 10-18-2007, 02:13 PM
AngusThermopyle AngusThermopyle is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????


If "Hero" did not hide his hand, take too long to act, fake folding or just calling, etc, it is not an angle.
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  #5  
Old 10-18-2007, 02:16 PM
GreedIsGood GreedIsGood is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

From the description I consider the loose guys out-of-turn action to be an angle shoot. Hero, as described, as done nothing wrong (assuming, as AT said, his hand isn't hidden). Hero is allowed to spend a little time considering his action.
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2007, 02:17 PM
the machine the machine is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

thats what i thought too. the hero actually raised to 80 and the loose guy hemmed and hawwed and finally folded. i was like wtf. call and let him raise like he intended.
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Old 10-18-2007, 02:22 PM
AngusThermopyle AngusThermopyle is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

[ QUOTE ]
From the description I consider the loose guys out-of-turn action to be an angle shoot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?
Maybe he forgot Hero was in the pot.
Maybe he thought Hero was folding.
Maybe he flopped a set and didn't care what Hero did.

Only if he was aware that his action was not binding (OP didn't even know the rule) and was trying to use his "illegal raise" to get Hero to change his action is this an angle.
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Old 10-18-2007, 02:52 PM
GreedIsGood GreedIsGood is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

I'm working on the assumption that the Hero's hand isn't hidden and the fact that the out-of-turn player had just done this a couple of hands earlier, and presumably had been told then.

Now the OOT player could easily be clueless and can't figure out that you can't click your action in advance in a live game, but that's not how I read the OP. To me is sounded like the OOT player knew exactly what they were doing and were trying to change hero's action with their non-binding raise.
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  #9  
Old 10-18-2007, 03:46 PM
the machine the machine is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

ok nothing was hidden, he wasnt taking along time, villain was just eager to jump the gun. i dont think anyone was trying to angleshoot, but i was curious if you thought it was an angle shoot to see his intended raise and just call behind the first player knowing that the loose player was going to raise, because he made this mistake when it wasnt his action due to him being a crazy, loose, bet happy, maniac.



sorry i guess the title is kinda of misleading. my purpose was to find out if it would be an angleshoot by the hero in this case to just call behind instead of going for his intended raise to trap the raisers bet in. mind you hero in this case did not have hidden cards or take a long time.
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  #10  
Old 10-18-2007, 05:03 PM
DeuceKicker DeuceKicker is offline
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Default Re: out of action person bets, angleshoot????

It's really no different than if hero looks to his left and sees that the anxious guy has enough chips in his hand to raise (more applicable in a limit game) and decides to just call so he can possibly call-raise.

Since hero didn't cause the other guy to act out of turn, he didn't do anything wrong, and he's free to take advantage of the situation.
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