Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfriend

[Belok]

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There are many hundreds of 2p2ers in their 20s who are earning $100 - $500/hour online.

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I call serious BS on that statements. There are not hundreds of 20 something 2p2ers earning the equivalent of $200,000 to $1,000,000 a year online (assuming they are playing the equivalent of a full-time job).

Try maybe 10. And for those that can do this over a 8-10 year span, perhaps 2.

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Thought I'd pipe in here...

golf - you're applying your perception of what it is to "make a good living" universally, and you really cant do that.

Perhaps you haven't had as much luck in poker as much of the rest of 2+2, but it really isn't very hard to make 200k+ per year. And once you have done that, if you have the discipline, it is very easy to continue earning that kind of $.


On top of that - With all of this extra money you've made, you can invest, start side businesses, etc. As a poker player you are very used to taking calculated risks, and you can apply this skill to almost every other area of your life. You are also used to surviving off of nothing more than your own effort - something that scares the hell out of most of the middle class.


I'm sure your career has worked out well for you, but your path is not necessarily the best universally.


I will agree with you though, that the skillset that you develop to play poker professionally does not help you very much in the "real world". It definitely prepares you for the mental ups-and-downs of being self-employed, or investing, but another set of skills is definitely needed if you want to be employable. ****The players who are capable of making 200k+/yr (mostly) realize this and use their wealth to create more options for themselves**** A couple of the people who have contributed to this thread would fall under that category.

And for this type of player, (bankroll conscious, long-term winner, invests extra money) the risk of going bust is not even close to the risk an "average joe" has of being laid off. Especially someone with a job requiring a very narrow set of skills who is not easily re-employed (dye-casting for example).
Just my 2c.

[Shizzle12345]

just go through small and medium stakes november threads and you see people who make that kind of money. Also check the monthly graphs threads, ALOT of 20-30 y olds who are making tons of money. If you invest a ton of time in it, and you try to track down your leaks like crazy then you can def earn a ton of cash .. But most pple dont invest the required amount of time.

[golfnutt]

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Perhaps you haven't had as much luck in poker as much of the rest of 2+2, but it really isn't very hard to make 200k+ per year. And once you have done that, if you have the discipline, it is very easy to continue earning that kind of $.

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You are out of your mind if you think that many people make $200k a year. I went to the medium stakes and there were some who made the equivalent $18k-$24k in one month. Big deal. They will lose that the next month.

But arguing against poker here would be like going to Wisconsin and saying how cheese is bad for you and hardens your arteries. Have a whole group of people here whose self-interest is in believing poker is a sustainable and viable career decision.

I have seen these people come and go over the last 15 years. And even if they win, many can't handle the poker 'lifestyle'. It seems glamarous at first, especially compared to their counterparts who are working a full-time job, but it becomes a grind, and an unfulfilling one at that.

As to my own poker skills, I am way above average.

Cheers

[golfnutt]

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- they don't play 40 hours a week

Yes, there are 100s of 2p2ers 20 somethings earning 200k+/year

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They don't play 40 hours a week because it is not a sustainable win rate. Of course, in short-term variance, anyone can make it. Geez, I won $500 in 30 minutes the other day. Maybe I could say I am a $1000 an hour winner.

Please provide proof that there are hundreds of 2p2ers making $200k a year.

[Henry17]

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You are out of your mind if you think that many people make $200k a year.

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I believe it is quite easy to make $200k when you factor in loyalty programs.

It is hard to judge how many people actually do. Some of the threads I read lead me to believe that while the potential is there for anyone with average intelligence that nevertheless most people don't.

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Have a whole group of people here whose self-interest is in believing poker is a sustainable and viable career decision.

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I started gambling in 91-92 and got progressively more serious about it till somewhere around 98 the numbers were such that I'd have to be insane to pick anything but this as a career. So I don't need to believe it is a sustainable income source. I think after 10 years I can say with a fair amount of confidence that it is a sustainable income source for myself.

That being said I believe the internet has set a lot of people up for failure. Online poker has given a bunch of guys in their early 20s a lot of false confidence. Everyone thinks the game is getting harder in the last 2-3 years and it might be relative to when they started playing. Most online players entered poker when it was at an all time with respect to softness. So I do believe a lot of people in their early 20s are going to screw up their lives because of it.

[Mr_Pathetic]

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There are many hundreds of 2p2ers in their 20s who are earning $100 - $500/hour online.

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I call serious BS on that statements. There are not hundreds of 20 something 2p2ers earning the equivalent of $200,000 to $1,000,000 a year online (assuming they are playing the equivalent of a full-time job).

Try maybe 10. And for those that can do this over a 8-10 year span, perhaps 2.

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your have really lost it here. i know a few folks that do not even post on this site making $150 an hour multitabling NL200. it can be done and can be done for millions of hands if you can handle it.

try this, a good player can earn 5PTBB/100. now plug that into this formula: (PTBB/100)(2/100)(BigBlind)(#ofhands) and that equals your take. so for example. I beat NL25 for 7.5 with huge tilt problems 20k hands. Could I run hot during this, of course, winrates aren't even solid till a few 100k hands. but you can expect 7.5 +-2 I would guess. So if I beat NL25 for 5PTBB my formula looks like this (5)(2/100)(.25)(20000)=500. I can play that many hands in two weeks.

Now look at someone who plays around 30k hands at NL200 every month and here is there take. (5)(2/100)(2)(30000)=6,000. Now that is a decent chunk of change and those who can attain this winrate will move up. the mediocre players who stay here can expect 2-3. now (2)(2/100)(2)(30000)=2400. Now keep in mind those who make only 2-3 often play 6+ tables and put in huge numbers of hands every month.

Now to the ones who move to NL400-NL1000. A good solid player can earn 2PTBB here. A really good player can do 4+ easily. So someone doing 2PTBB at NL400: (2)(2/100)(4)(30000)= 4800 or 57600 per year. Someone at NL1000: (2)(2/100)(10)(30000)= 12,000 or 144,000 per year. Now keep in mind I have some datamined hands where some of the decent regs have made 4PTBB+ over 55k hands.

Now to NL2000. A very solid player here can do 2 PTBB. Now formula for this guy playing 30k hands a month. (2)(2/100)(20)(30000)=24,000. Now thats 24000*12= 288,000.

So I hope this helps you see exactly how much money people are making. So if you think only 2 people can do this year in and year out your nuts. Maybe only 10 can do it at NL5000, I'll give you that.

NOW think of how long it takes to get in 30,000 hands a month. Definitely NOT 40 hours a week. I can do 1000 a day on 3-4 tables in three hours. So it is not unreasonble to think that someone can play 2k hands a day for 28 days a month. I play six days a week, 1000 hands a day. So most full timers prob avg around 40-50k hands a month. I left this at 30k to deliberately skew the numbers. So people making these amounts are playing three hours a day over 30 days. I'll take $2400 a month for three hours of work a day.

Disclaimer: I used 2PTBB in a lot of equations here so you cannot go off and say no one can do five cause anyone with some good fundamentals and tilt management can crank out 2 in MSNL. Tilt management on those inevitable downswings from hell and breakeven stretches at such a small winrate will be crucial. also some people play 30k hands every two weeks and quite a few of these guys who play a ton of tables for 2PTBB get in anywhere from 30-100k hands per month.

EDIT: if you think this formula is BS try it on a PT database. It works with very good accuracy.

[geormiet]

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- they don't play 40 hours a week

Yes, there are 100s of 2p2ers 20 somethings earning 200k+/year

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They don't play 40 hours a week because it is not a sustainable win rate. Of course, in short-term variance, anyone can make it. Geez, I won $500 in 30 minutes the other day. Maybe I could say I am a $1000 an hour winner.

Please provide proof that there are hundreds of 2p2ers making $200k a year.

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I'm not sure how to do this other than naming people who I know who are earning this much money, which I won't do. Of all my poker friends, I know maybe 10 people who are making this much. I know just a tiny fraction of 2p2 and am part of the SH limit world, which is less lucrative than NL. Therefore I assume that there are 100s or 1000s who are also earning that much outside the group that I am friends with.

Also, here are some numbers.

I play between 5/10 and 100/200. I'm a good player, but there are many who are better than me, and on average, I earn $.75/hand including rakeback.

[golfnutt]

A story about one of my best friends who I met in business school. He started day trading. He turned $5k into $500,000 in about 6 months. My first job I made $62k and that was working 50 hour weeks. So, he made in one year what it would take me eight years (at the same salary to earn).

And he got up whenever he wanted and did whatever he wanted. He was obsessed with checking stocks and would be on stock and day-trading message boards and everyone was making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Markets and his timing soured. He started losing money and his position was down to $250k. Instead of looking at it as a $245k gain, he viewed as a $250k loss and got more depressed. He took even more gambles and his position was worth $70k. He viewed it as the end of the world. He didn't even care about the $70k and thought of the $430k loss.

Shortly thereafter, he had ZERO in his account. He tells me that if he had got to $1mm, he would have quit, but he was never going to stop.

He did nothing for months and just rued about his losses. Meanwhile, the rest of the MBA class was working up the career ladder.

He started working for his old man. But he couldn't stand having to be there at 9am and work a full-day and make only a few hundred a day. They got into a huge fight and parted ways.

He resorted to taking cash off all his credit cards to live. He constantly applies for credit cards and finally one somehow got approved and he immediately took cash advances. He is probably in debt $100k and hasn't worked in nine years.

It wasn't that he took a shot that was bad. It was the corruption of money that killed his soul. For him to view $70,000 as meaningless when that would take someone saving $10,000 a year for 6 years to get to (assuming interest) is unhealthy.

He is borderline suicidal and views himself as damaged goods. This story, imho, is tranferable to the internet poker player generation. There will definitely be some winners, but the majority will be remains on the sideroad of life.

[geormiet]

day trading is far far far riskier than poker.

[Mr_Pathetic]

your friend sounds like grimstarr.