200PLO TP + flush draw overaggressive line?

Vinetou · #1 10-28-2007, 06:09 AM

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($220.65)
CO ($589.90)
Button ($208.45)
SB ($172.55)
BB ($218.60)
UTG ($43.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, SB calls $6, BB calls $5.

Flop: ($21) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $12, BB calls $12, Hero raises to $67.95, SB calls $55.95, BB calls $55.95.

Turn: ($224.85) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $145.7 (All-In),

Just browsing through old HH's and I found that hand. Villain donked into me before. I think I overplayed the hand. I should at least shut down on turn and probably just call the flop.

Generally, what does donk bet mean in Omaha? I know how to deal with them in Hold'em pretty well, but what hands they generally represent in Omaha? I am actually more worried about the caller in this hand. If there was just one villain, I think my play would be good. With two villains calling my raise on the flop, this is probably a spew. What do you think of my play here?

iggymcfly · #2 10-28-2007, 06:16 AM

Yeah, you're better off just calling on the flop. Heads-up, it's easier to think of it as a "donk-bet" and make more hold'em type adjustments, but in a three-way pot, it could be anything from a weak draw trying to pick up the pot to the nuts with a redraw.

On the turn, you definitely, definitely need to check. Both BB and SB are repping sets here and at least one of them is going to have one. You're getting both players to fold <10% of the time here and you're never getting in ahead on the turn so just be happy to take your free card.

2handed · #3 10-28-2007, 07:41 AM

Raising the flop is a little gambly without a few more outs. I would do it if I had a gutshot or 2pair to go with NFD.

Calling the flop is fine because you are getting proper direct odds on your draw, and you are giving them the opportunity to stack off and if they want to stack off they are going to be a favorite with almost any reasonable stackoff holding (2pair/set+flush draw or straight).

Donkbets don't just mean one thing, it is pretty player dependant. I know players who whenever they donkbet are dying for you to raise so they can 3bet, and others who do it in order to get info with a weak or medium strength hand.
Some do both, generally the better players.

On a board where an obvious made hand is possible I am very wary about raising a donkbet with a pure draw since your fold equity is pretty slim.

Vinetou · #4 10-28-2007, 07:43 AM

"On a board where an obvious made hand is possible I am very wary about raising a donkbet with a pure draw since your fold equity is pretty slim."

So you usually wouldn't do it even against one opponent?

2handed · #5 10-28-2007, 07:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"On a board where an obvious made hand is possible I am very wary about raising a donkbet with a pure draw since your fold equity is pretty slim."

So you usually wouldn't do it even against one opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually would not do it against one opponent. Obviously there are exceptions, but I think this donkbet is pretty strong, and you are never in great shape against his range. I guess if I know he is a weaktight and is going to checkfold a blank on turn I may be more inclined. But with just the NFD, meh I don't really like it.

FWIW In a cap PLO game like the 40bb one on FTP it think raising the flop here is standard.

Grandezza · #6 10-28-2007, 08:08 AM

"On a board where an obvious made hand is possible I am very wary about raising a donkbet with a pure draw since your fold equity is pretty slim."

Why is this? I'm not sure I get it. Because he knows he appears weak and you raising represents a small range? This not might be true but I could imagine a lot of players thinking you would only raise the straight or a very big draw here.

2handed · #7 10-28-2007, 08:29 AM

So you think villain is donkbetting with the intention of folding a significant amount of the time? He has a set or a straight here most of the time, so is raising really adding that much value to your hand?

When someone donkbets on a coordinated board, the most likely reason is that they hit the flopped hard, and since it has a flush draw on it they don't want to give a free card.

IMO when you raise the flop here, you commit yourself to calling an all in. It is a significant leak to put all your chips in here, and the time he gives up on his 12 dollar bet are not going to compensate you for all the times you put in 200 bucks as a 60-40 or worse dawg, which you will be every time you stack off.

Sure there are the times when he calls your raise with a set and then folds a blank turn, but I wouldnt count on this happening all that much. Too much of the time they can't make the laydown and end up looking like geniuses, when they catch you drawing to eight outs for your whole stack.

Vinetou · #8 10-28-2007, 09:42 AM

So 2handed, you are saying that raising donkbets on drawheavy boards like that one is a bad play, while on safe flops it would be better? This is the same for Hold'em to some degree.

Flip-Flop · #9 10-28-2007, 10:39 AM

I raise this flop.
I wouldn`t pot it but def raising to 30-35.
Many reasons for it but 1 one of the primary reasons for me would be to "check where I am" because I expect a set or str8 to repot it because of the 2 spades.

After the 2 flop calls I`m gonna need some good reads on both in order to make the right move on the turn.

garcia1000 · #10 10-28-2007, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Many reasons for it but 1 one of the primary reasons for me would be to "check where I am" because I expect a set or str8 to repot it because of the 2 spades.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand. What good does it do you to know you're against a set or straight if you have to fold?