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#1
11-30-2007, 03:21 AM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
[ QUOTE ]
We live in a society where we need money and property rights to get by. Believing that the system should be changed does not equate to not caring if someone takes your wallet. Just as ACers pay taxes and utilize public services. We have to work within the system we've got, as much as we may dislike it. So I don't think "give me your wallet, then" is a valid counter-argument. I do think "all property is theft" is a silly position, although no sillier than natural rights. Both suffer from their absolutism and attempt to objectively define intangible moral ideas. So if I was big on property rights, my line of attack would be to go after the "all property is theft" thing. By that logic, not only is property theft, but anything that denies anyone else the use of anything is theft. E.g. eating an apple is theft, even if you don't claim to own it. What if someone else wanted to eat that? Then I would argue that concepts such as property rights are a matter of preference and social norm and I'd give some examples of why a lack of property rights would be unpleasant in a socialist society though, not "give me your wallet, now". [/ QUOTE ] Give me your wallet is enough to prove that people who don't think property exists are either saying stuff they don't really believe for their own purposes or batshit insane. The grey area null zone crap we can deal with in the other 1000 threads on the topic but lets say once and for all that "property rights don't exist" is a self detonating argument. 
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#2
11-30-2007, 03:38 AM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
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Give me your wallet is enough to prove that people who don't think property exists are either saying stuff they don't really believe for their own purposes or batshit insane. The grey area null zone crap we can deal with in the other 1000 threads on the topic but lets say once and for all that "property rights don't exist" is a self detonating argument. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that someone gets upset when you ask for their wallet has nothing to do with rights. If I steal your wallet, and then you ask for it back, I am not going to willingly give it you, despite the fact that I have no reasonably property claim to it. The reason that I don't give it back is because I feel I am better off with the wallet than without it. It is a utility-based decision and not a rights-based one. And it is the same decision process I go through if you demand something that I have a more legitimate legal claim to.
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#3
11-30-2007, 03:42 AM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Give me your wallet is enough to prove that people who don't think property exists are either saying stuff they don't really believe for their own purposes or batshit insane. The grey area null zone crap we can deal with in the other 1000 threads on the topic but lets say once and for all that "property rights don't exist" is a self detonating argument. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that someone gets upset when you ask for their wallet has nothing to do with rights. If I steal your wallet, and then you ask for it back, I am not going to willingly give it you, despite the fact that I have no reasonably property claim to it. The reason that I don't give it back is because I feel I am better off with the wallet than without it. It is a utility-based decision and not a rights-based one. And it is the same decision process I go through if you demand something that I have a more legitimate legal claim to. [/ QUOTE ] But you still recognize property rights, you just believe like our sociopath friend here that your property right is "whatever you can get your hands on and defend"
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#4
11-30-2007, 04:31 AM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Give me your wallet is enough to prove that people who don't think property exists are either saying stuff they don't really believe for their own purposes or batshit insane. The grey area null zone crap we can deal with in the other 1000 threads on the topic but lets say once and for all that "property rights don't exist" is a self detonating argument. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that someone gets upset when you ask for their wallet has nothing to do with rights. If I steal your wallet, and then you ask for it back, I am not going to willingly give it you, despite the fact that I have no reasonably property claim to it. The reason that I don't give it back is because I feel I am better off with the wallet than without it. It is a utility-based decision and not a rights-based one. And it is the same decision process I go through if you demand something that I have a more legitimate legal claim to. [/ QUOTE ] But you still recognize property rights, you just believe like our sociopath friend here that your property right is "whatever you can get your hands on and defend" [/ QUOTE ] No, in this example I am not saying I have a "right" to anything. Just that I will do benefits me and not do what doesn't benefit me. You can say this is sociopathic, but that is just your opinion, and has nothing to do with my actual believe system. I think it is sociopathic when people claim they don't have a moral obligation to pay taxes. Does that mean they don't actually believe what they say they believe?
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#5
11-30-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
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I think it is sociopathic when people claim they don't have a moral obligation to pay taxes. Does that mean they don't actually believe what they say they believe? [/ QUOTE ] How do you figure this? If I say I don't have a moral obligation to give "my" wallet to a mugger, do you think that if I get mugged and give my wallet up I don't believe what I say? I don't have a moral obligation to eat a cheeseburger. I did, however, eat a cheeseburger last night. Contradiction?
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#6
11-30-2007, 11:46 AM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Give me your wallet is enough to prove that people who don't think property exists are either saying stuff they don't really believe for their own purposes or batshit insane. The grey area null zone crap we can deal with in the other 1000 threads on the topic but lets say once and for all that "property rights don't exist" is a self detonating argument. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that someone gets upset when you ask for their wallet has nothing to do with rights. If I steal your wallet, and then you ask for it back, I am not going to willingly give it you, despite the fact that I have no reasonably property claim to it. The reason that I don't give it back is because I feel I am better off with the wallet than without it. It is a utility-based decision and not a rights-based one. And it is the same decision process I go through if you demand something that I have a more legitimate legal claim to. [/ QUOTE ] Same question to you, but without the big guy stealing "your" wallet first. You just see a sleeping old lady with $100 hanging out of her pocket. Are you taking it?
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#7
11-30-2007, 07:20 PM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Give me your wallet is enough to prove that people who don't think property exists are either saying stuff they don't really believe for their own purposes or batshit insane. The grey area null zone crap we can deal with in the other 1000 threads on the topic but lets say once and for all that "property rights don't exist" is a self detonating argument. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that someone gets upset when you ask for their wallet has nothing to do with rights. If I steal your wallet, and then you ask for it back, I am not going to willingly give it you, despite the fact that I have no reasonably property claim to it. The reason that I don't give it back is because I feel I am better off with the wallet than without it. It is a utility-based decision and not a rights-based one. And it is the same decision process I go through if you demand something that I have a more legitimate legal claim to. [/ QUOTE ] Same question to you, but without the big guy stealing "your" wallet first. You just see a sleeping old lady with $100 hanging out of her pocket. Are you taking it? [/ QUOTE ] Probably not, but not because I believe she has a right to that $100. I wouldn't take it because I would get no pleasure out of taking $100 from an old lady. If it was somebody who I knew to be a total jerk, I might take the money.
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#8
11-30-2007, 11:25 AM
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Re: Argh property rights debate
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Give me your wallet is enough to prove that people who don't think property exists are either saying stuff they don't really believe for their own purposes or batshit insane. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think this is quite right. They can not believe in property rights and still get upset if you take their money, not because they feel their rights have been violated, but rather because they are forced to operate in an environment where money is the only way to acquire essential goods and services. As an example, suppose I hate universal health care but live in Canada. If I get sick and you steal my health card, I will get upset. It's not because I really love my universal health care system deep down inside, it's because I am being forced to not pursue alternatives.
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Hybrid Mode
