Case in Point...

[Lestat]

You're right that the roots of women being oppressed by men is probably not religious. Religion is just what scares people into keeping this custom alive and make it still seem justifiable in the year 2007.

[chezlaw]

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You're right that the roots of women being oppressed by men is probably not religious. Religion is just what scares people into keeping this custom alive and make it still seem justifiable in the year 2007.

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Maybe. I can't convince myself that the first bit is true. Many seem perfectly happy to keep this custom alive.

I think nasty people behave this way because it kinda makes sense, our main objection stems from our niceness. Its obscene far more than ridiculous.

chez

[Lestat]

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You're right that the roots of women being oppressed by men is probably not religious. Religion is just what scares people into keeping this custom alive and make it still seem justifiable in the year 2007.

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Maybe. I can't convince myself that the first bit is true. Many seem perfectly happy to keep this custom alive.

I think nasty people behave this way because it kinda makes sense, our main objection stems from our niceness. Its obscene far more than ridiculous.

chez

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I must really be missing something in these last couple of threads. Are you saying that women LIKE being oppressed? Granted, many of them know of no other life. But I can't believe that if they had a choice, they wouldn't want to be treated as someone else's property.

I really can't believe what I'm hearing in these threads. Of course, it's religious! Men use the bible or Koran to sexually mutilate little girls and keep them in line. It's sick! This isn't happening because everyone "thought" about it and decided it should be that way.

[VarlosZ]

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I must really be missing something in these last couple of threads. Are you saying that women LIKE being oppressed? Granted, many of them know of no other life. But I can't believe that if they had a choice, they wouldn't want to be treated as someone else's property.

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I've heard a few testimonials from westerners that lived in Saudi Arabia (or some comparably religious Muslim society) who, on the subject of Islamic treatment of women, insist that the vast majority of these women are living how they want to live -- i.e, they're just as religious and conservative as the men, and think the strict laws pertaining to women are just. I'm open to evidence to the contrary but, assuming that's true, it would be wrong to call these women "oppressed."

[luckyme]

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I've heard a few testimonials from westerners that lived in Saudi Arabia (or some comparably religious Muslim society) who, on the subject of Islamic treatment of women, insist that the vast majority of these women are living how they want to live -- i.e, they're just as religious and conservative as the men, and think the strict laws pertaining to women are just. I'm open to evidence to the contrary but, assuming that's true, it would be wrong to call these women "oppressed."

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Or to call abused wives in america that return to their husband abused because they obviously like it. Or children that want their abusive parents back. Or hostages that find 'good' in their abducters, etc.

It's like the brainwashing of children situation. you can't respect somebodies choice/opinion until they've been able to appreciate the options, then if they make a free choice, go fer it.

There's a nagging at the back of my mind that there were a fair amount of slaves who thought they were 'supposed to be' slaves. I wonder about caste systems .. do the untouchables not think they are supposed to be in that caste? Or serfs in feudal days? were/are they right?

What about women from other countries that marry in or work and live in one of these cultures. Do they generally say, " yep, this is much better for us women".?

If it's true that that's what women want, by all means do it, but until they have a free run at making the choice their opinion is Stockholmed.

luckyme

[VarlosZ]

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I've heard a few testimonials from westerners that lived in Saudi Arabia (or some comparably religious Muslim society) who, on the subject of Islamic treatment of women, insist that the vast majority of these women are living how they want to live -- i.e, they're just as religious and conservative as the men, and think the strict laws pertaining to women are just. I'm open to evidence to the contrary but, assuming that's true, it would be wrong to call these women "oppressed."

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Or to call abused wives in america that return to their husband abused because they obviously like it. Or children that want their abusive parents back. Or hostages that find 'good' in their abducters, etc.

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Come on, you know those aren't apt analogies. The abused wife doesn't think it's good that she and other wives are beaten, even if she does stick around in spite of it, and she certainly doesn't think that wife-beating should be institutionalized.

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It's like the brainwashing of children situation. you can't respect somebodies choice/opinion until they've been able to appreciate the options, then if they make a free choice, go fer it. . .

. . . If it's true that that's what women want, by all means do it, but until they have a free run at making the choice their opinion is Stockholmed.

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I'm sympathetic to this problem, but how do you determine what constitutes "brainwashing," and how do you differentiate it from mere culturally shared beliefs? These women presumably watch TV at home and have an idea about what their life would be like in western countries. How much can you discount their rejection of a western lifestyle based on the fact that almost every one else around them shares the same belief? And to what extent are you willing to apply the same standards to your own culture?

Example: I've heard that a common Muslim rebuttal to the "how can you treat your women that way?" complaint is "how can you treat your elderly that way?" That is, how can you send them off to die in nursing homes instead of doing whatever it takes to take care of them yourselves, as a family.

If you can say that Islamic women who prefer to live under strict Sharia law are brainwashed, could not a Muslim say the same about American elders who agree to spend their last years in a hospital ward surrounded by strangers?

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What about women from other countries that marry in or work and live in one of these cultures. Do they generally say, " yep, this is much better for us women".?

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I doubt it, but that works both ways.

[VarlosZ]

Addendum: Finally, even if you make a good faith effort to apply the same standards to your culture and you conclude that it is nobler in this regard than the other culture, how can you have any confidence in that conclusion given that you are a member of your preferred culture and therefore naturally biased in favor of it? Many (most?) of your core values come from growing up in the West, so of course you should be expected to conclude that its norms are morally preferable to another's.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">Come on, you know those aren't apt analogies. </font>

The anologies are very apt, because they both entail people who fear for their lives if they rebell. They both also entail a false sense of security. The abusive husband has a knack of making the woman feel secure and happy as long as she does what she's told and doesn't get out of line.

Luckyme hit the nail on the head. Until these women actually have a choice, it is wrong to assume this is what they would opt for. Anyone rational person who has faith in in humanity should be vehemently against the oppression of anyone.

[luckyme]

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Come on, you know those aren't apt analogies. The abused wife doesn't think it's good that she and other wives are beaten, even if she does stick around in spite of it, and she certainly doesn't think that wife-beating should be institutionalized.

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I'm of the school that no analogies are apt, we can only do some serious pointing with them, they aren't and can't be congruent.

You've very wrong about abused wives ( and children) that return. They really do think they 'deserve' it or at least it's their fault and if they'd just not cause it...yadda yadda.

You're see to be thinking more of the "live with me or I'll kill ya" type. Reconsider in the vein I'm suggesting.

luckyme

[madnak]

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I've heard a few testimonials from westerners that lived in Saudi Arabia (or some comparably religious Muslim society) who, on the subject of Islamic treatment of women, insist that the vast majority of these women are living how they want to live -- i.e, they're just as religious and conservative as the men, and think the strict laws pertaining to women are just. I'm open to evidence to the contrary but, assuming that's true, it would be wrong to call these women "oppressed."

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Most of the women choose to live under those conditions. Fine and dandy. But the women who choose not to are killed for it. That's oppression. Also, anecdotal opinion is suspect in an area where dissent is a punishable offense.