NL100 - Villain donks into our midpair on the turn...

[tubasteve]

I was coaching today and my student played this hand. He runs at about 19/15/3 and plays a pretty normal solid game, and should have a pretty benign image. Villain is 33/15/2, no other history.

Preflop: We pot from CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain is SB and calls

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain checks, we bet $6 into $8, he calls. Pot is $21 or so.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], villain donks 1/2 pot into us.


Whats our plan, and what range should we be putting the villain on? Please give an explanation as to why you would choose a particular action, because saying "call" doesn't really help me. I need both turn AND river plans, so please elaborate about your lines. Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Unknown Soldier]

you're sat in the same seat?

call. range? a load of crap. smaller prs/A high/Qx ish random bluffs, but not much worse continues when raised.

[tubasteve]

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you're sat in the same seat?

call. range? a load of crap. smaller prs/A high/Qx ish random bluffs, but not much worse continues when raised.

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villain is cutoff, i edited the OP. if you call the turn, whats the river plan?

[Unknown Soldier]

idk gimme a river. prob fold.

[AMT]

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you're sat in the same seat?

call. range? a load of crap. smaller prs/A high/Qx ish random bluffs, but not much worse continues when raised.

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villain is cutoff, i edited the OP. if you call the turn, whats the river plan ?

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i dont think people realize how potentially [censored] a spot this is. is it really just a simpe insta call turn insta call river? when is he shutting down on the river and really what are we beating at this point? do we just assume hes always taking all of the above listed garbage (which may or may not be in his range) and firing and this makes it an insta river call?

also, how strong a hand do you need to raise the turn then? i think there are a lot of grey areas here.

[AMT]

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idk gimme a river. prob fold.

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this illustrates how much of a seemingly reverse implied odds situation this can be.

[Unknown Soldier]

don't see why it's so tough :S

you have enough equity vs his range to continue on the turn. alot of villains fire turn then give up on river. Or bet small enough so we can proftably call against his range. really dry board so no need to raise to charge draws.

simple WA/WB spot imo

[DaGrunt]

Thats a small pair or some other creative hand. I'm almost sure u have the best hand here. When the 2nd queen pops up he doesn't give u credit for a queen and donks, desperately trying to win the pot here. Or maybe trying to get value for his crap hand? I don't really know what that guy's doing, but you can't fold here. Raising here isn't good though, he'll just fold everything you beat. Just call turn and re-evaluate.. if he bets big I'm folding, unless you got a read he likes to bluff a lot. If he checks I'll prolly just check behind, don't think there's a lot of value in betting there? If he has TT/JJ there's no way he's folding them on the river though, so u can't really force a better hand out.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
I was coaching today and my student played this hand. He runs at about 19/15/3 and plays a pretty normal solid game, and should have a pretty benign image. Villain is 33/15/2, no other history.

Preflop: We pot from CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain is SB and calls

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain checks, we bet $6 into $8, he calls. Pot is $21 or so.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], villain donks 1/2 pot into us.


Whats our plan, and what range should we be putting the villain on? Please give an explanation as to why you would choose a particular action, because saying "call" doesn't really help me. I need both turn AND river plans, so please elaborate about your lines. Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Betting this flop is a mistake. Just because we c-bet the majority of time doesn't make it correct ALL the time.

Checking this flop allows us to do a few things. First of all we keep the pot small (this isn't the number one reason to check the flop but it helps).

Secondly, we get more value out of smaller pocket pairs and lesser pairs. Pocket 7's will definitely call a turn bet and MIGHT call a river bet. Whereas if we bet this flop and get called it's like we are in no mans land.

We check turn and check river? We are giving up value by doing this but the whole crux of the problem lies in the flop play and not in the turn/river as you alluded to in your OP.

[AMT]

unknown soldier,

i think we just simply disagree on how often he checks the river given the situation. I think as played villain wont ever think ace high or a low pp has showdown value and i dont think he really shuts down after donking the turn (i know all we have to go on are stats), knowing he has to bet to win. I mean is he really going to donk on that card then decide to not donk the next street? meh. also, if he checks the river, is 99 a clear value bet then.....? if hes gonna donk the turn and then check with a hand like a low pp is he just gonna c/f the river? I doubt it...

that said, now all of this seems to conflict with each other and since i really dont think he checks the river that often im finding it hard to justify calling the turn with the intention of folding to most river bets.

speed limits,

id like a flop check more with jacks. not wrong to check 99 but i think the flop bet is perfectly standard/fine.