Trying to learn to raise for a free SD

[Eraserhead]

One thing I don't feel at all comfortable with and almost never use is the raise on turn for a free SD. Before this hand I hade read some about it here in the forum so when playing this hand the thought crossed my mind and I tried it. . From what I understand, raising for a free SD we do when (not all must apply):

1) we have a hand we want to SD,
2) we might fold out a better hand
3) we can fold to a 3-bet (?)
4) we can fold out a 6 or 5 outer in a relatively big pot

This is me semi-guessing, please flame away, any help would be gladly appreciated.

I had seen villian play 10 hands by this hand of which he folded 9 pre-flop. The one he went to flop with he checked in BB w J3o after UTG+1 limp, then c, c (on turn he got a flush draw J high), bet his flush which came in on river.

1/2 LHE

Your cards Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [Hero on Button]

Preflop:
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1, CO folds, Hero raises $2, SB folds, BB calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1

Dealing Flop 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, BB raises $2, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $1

Dealing Turn 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB bets $2, Hero raises $4

[istewart]

There are a few free SD opportunities you will come across but they are fairly rare today. Often it just ends in you folding hands with decent equity vs. your opponent's range - i.e. what if he 3-bets you with 84s or Ah4h? The type of player to checkraise A8 on the flop will bet his hand for you so don't worry about getting value. Just call it down.

[NinaWilliams]

Sample FSDR spot:

Preflop : Hero raises 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the HJ folded to the BB who calls.

Flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villain c/r hero calls

Turn A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villain bets Hero raises

[Eraserhead]

Ok, thank you both. Nina, that was a pretty clear-cut example... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Oink]

Try to unlearn it and you will do better in todays aggro games IMO.

People 3-bet you to much with worse hands. In particular combo hands. (pair + draw)

Anyhoo

Dont FSD raise unless you think all these conditions are fulfilled.

- You can fold a better hand

- You can fold a good draw. By good draw I mean 8+ outer in a 4-5BB pot. Eg. Raise 22 on K955 turn to fold, say, 87 with 16 outs.

- Villain will not put in a bet on the river with a busted draw. I.e. if villain fires the river as a bluff with his busted draws you dont really charge him extra by raising the river.

- Villain wont 3-bet a worse hand. (This is VERY important. People go nuts trying to figure out if they should call a river bet in a 6BB pot with about 10-15% eq. But folding a hand with 20% eq in a 7BB pot is a MUCH MUCH bigger decision money wise - altho it happens more rarely)


Try picking up Stox book. He has a good discussion of the FSD raise. But mind you he gets a boner everytime he does it.

[Eraserhead]

Ok, so if I understand correctly.

With the games beeing so aggressive these days, the RFSD is not so useful for two reasons, one beeing the risk of getting semi-bluffed out of the pot by a draw when I fold to the 3-bet while holding the best hand, the other one beeing the high possibility that opponent will bet a worse hand (busted draw for example) at river, gaining me the same amount of bets without risking folding the best hand.

Thanks a lot for the help! I'll be sure to read through Stox' section about this when the book arrives, which it should do any day now.

[mattnxtc]

[ QUOTE ]
Try picking up Stox book. He has a good discussion of the FSD raise. But mind you he gets a boner everytime he does it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been listening to his videos and visualizing him saying that would be hilarious.

[Gurravasa]

I don't like the RFSD you suggest in the first post of this thread since there is no likely better hands that you'll fold with a turn raise.

[acehole60]

Doesn't the free SD raise also apply to a hand which you want to take to SD but also have some outs? An example would be middle pair with a flush draw: We're on the turn with Ah7h on a 2h 7c 5h Js. Villain bets into you. We'll pay 2BB to go to SD either way so we can raise turn intending to check behind non heart non A (thus collecting 3 BBs when we hit gin and still paying 2 when we don't).

As the others mentioned it wont work against aggro opponents who'll 3bet a naked J but I imagine that there're some villains this would be the play against. That being said I don't use the FSD very much.

[NinaWilliams]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't the free SD raise also apply to a hand which you want to take to SD but also have some outs? An example would be middle pair with a flush draw: We're on the turn with Ah7h on a 2h 7c 5h Js. Villain bets into you. We'll pay 2BB to go to SD either way so we can raise turn intending to check behind non heart non A (thus collecting 3 BBs when we hit gin and still paying 2 when we don't).

As the others mentioned it wont work against aggro opponents who'll 3bet a naked J but I imagine that there're some villains this would be the play against. That being said I don't use the FSD very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason to FSD without any outs is so that you can fold to a 3 bet.