Staking/Make-up question: What to do with lower prize-pools?

WarDekar · #1 10-19-2007, 03:12 PM

My backer and I can't figure out what to do. I'm in make-up a decent amount, and want to play some upcoming circuit prelims for $300-$1k. The issue is, I'd basically have to get 1st or 2nd for me to get out of make-up, so I have little to no incentive to play because these are such small buy-ins and fields compared to the $10ks.

I obviously want to be staked for $10ks and higher buy-ins, but I would like to play these smaller prize-pool live tournaments as well. Unfortunately it's not really in either of our best interests for me to play in these with so little to play for, I mean it'd just be way too demoralizing to get 5th or something and not even get anything out of it.

So my question is, what's a good solution? I mean I'm willing to pay my own entries, however I feel that's a little unfair to him and don't want to mess up the relationship going forward.

Is there a good way we can make it so I get some kind of percentage of the cash for these 5 tournaments, or pay some of the entry myself? What's a good solution in a situation like this?

Perplexity · #2 10-19-2007, 03:34 PM

huh?

why would you have no incentive?

don't you want to erase your current deep make-up?

am i not understanding something about how these deals work?

it sounds like you want to continue with the arrangement...

JSmith2007 · #3 10-19-2007, 04:33 PM

Yeah, pretty confusing there.

If your backer is going to back you and continue doing so, you have to play no matter what the prize pool is really. You can't get out of make up by NOT playing. I think you saying 'getting 5th and nothing out of it' is just ridiculous. Be happy you're being backed and would be able to pay your make-up with a FT and/or 5th place finish. That's just a foolish comment IMO.

And obviously if you're playing $300-$1K circuit events and are in a pretty big make-up situation, jumping $10K events and praying won't help anything. Moving up levels like that almost never does, unless you're Jamie Gold or Yang.

WarDekar · #4 10-19-2007, 04:56 PM

Clearly you aren't understanding the situation.

Do you not see that it would be incredibly demoralizing to play in a tournament knowing you see no cash unless you win? Do you not see how this will affect my play?

Do you not see how it inherently leads to me wanting to gamble it up and go for first, which is obviously bad for both me and my backer?

Yes, I have to get out of make-up, but the issue is the make-up was made by playing bigger buy-ins, and 1 decent cash in a bigger buy-in and the make-up is gone. OTOH, in a small event that's only say a $300 buy-in where the prize pool isn't even $100k total, only the top two places really make a difference.

It's an inherent problem with being backed in a variety of buy-ins, and it's also a major problem with backing arrangements to begin with. If I'm down $15k (I think that's about what I'm in make-up, mostly from the ME), why would I want to play a $300 tournament where 2nd place isn't even $20k?

Don't you see the problem here? I can play online and get in hundreds of dollars worth of tournaments on my own bankroll with major +EV for me.

If I instead play a $300 live tournament that I have to get first to even see anything out of, well, that's just not a logical choice. Yes I understand eventually I have to get out of make-up, but also understand while in make-up 100% of wins go to my backer and when my largest win barely gets out of make-up, well psychologically it just isn't a good idea for myself.

Perplexity · #5 10-19-2007, 05:03 PM

If you expect to be dealing with this backer for a long time, and you expect to eventually cash in a big event, you'll get whatever your share is after makeup. Being down $10k less in makeup will earn you that much more. This is simple/obvious.

It sounds like the real problem is that you feel that $300 live tournaments aren't worth your time. You're probably right.

But the backing/makup element doesn't really make sense IMO.

JSmith2007 · #6 10-19-2007, 05:08 PM

Well, obviously your view of poker and mine are different.

I play simply to play, I love poker and not the money side of it. I think if you love to play poker, you can go in with the exact same mindset as if you were playing the Main Event. Many sports teams and players go in with the mindset (even though it may be just another regular old game) that this is the World Series, this is the SuperBowl, the Finals, etc. etc.

As I said, you may be playing for a living or to see serious cash or what not, but I'm not and that is why we differ in opinions. I don't see how anyone can say that $300 tournaments are useless. You should be playing with the exact same mindset no matter what, there may be a few more fish or donks in the lower ones, but you should be happy with them if you're a good poker player.

This is why I think Chris Ferguson is one of the best in the world - he doesn't care if he's playing a freeroll or the ME, he's still Chris Ferguson and will play hard every time.

shaniac · #7 10-19-2007, 11:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
. If I'm down $15k (I think that's about what I'm in make-up, mostly from the ME), why would I want to play a $300 tournament where 2nd place isn't even $20k?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Based on your OP, I figured makeup was much higher...in this case, any $300 or $500 prizepool should offer plenty of incentive to scratch that makeup figure out.

WarDekar · #8 10-20-2007, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. If I'm down $15k (I think that's about what I'm in make-up, mostly from the ME), why would I want to play a $300 tournament where 2nd place isn't even $20k?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Based on your OP, I figured makeup was much higher...in this case, any $300 or $500 prizepool should offer plenty of incentive to scratch that makeup figure out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked at prizepools for similar circuit events this year and first place has been low 30s, meaning only 1st or 2nd would get me out of make-up.

As I said that make-up was from WSOP prelims, the Main Event (most of it obv), and other $2k buy-ins. I would like to play some live again before playing anything bigger, but I just don't think I will be motivated enough to play in a tournament with this situation as I'm not going to be playing my best, and I just feel like I would feel so awful playing all day and not getting anything out of it.

And before you quote me saying "not getting anything out of it" and go off, trust me I know I am getting something out of it, and paying off make-up is something I have to do. I know this. I was in make-up over summer and won a $1k event which got me out of make-up (temporarily, before the ME). I know the feeling to play 12+ hours, get paid, then give it all back to my backer. I'm okay with that, but again it's just demoralizing to know that for me to "make anything" I have to get 1st, and only 1st.

Annulus · #9 10-20-2007, 02:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. If I'm down $15k (I think that's about what I'm in make-up, mostly from the ME), why would I want to play a $300 tournament where 2nd place isn't even $20k?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Based on your OP, I figured makeup was much higher...in this case, any $300 or $500 prizepool should offer plenty of incentive to scratch that makeup figure out.

[/ QUOTE ]

this thread is very lol. i also figured you were down at least 100k the way you were talking. lol at you getting stressed out with makeup in the 15k range. wtf, how is that going to make you change your game? lol. dude, play $300s and heck play $50s, lol.

Clayton · #10 10-19-2007, 11:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly you aren't understanding the situation.

Do you not see that it would be incredibly demoralizing to play in a tournament knowing you see no cash unless you win? Do you not see how this will affect my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think he understands it clearly. I think your mind is a little warped because having this mindset makes you a pretty poor investment imo.

Part of making profit means eliminating makeup, and if that means playing tournaments where if you finish third you still make no money, then so what. You're just that closer to making money of your own.

This reverse martingale mindset of yours is hazardous imo. Just work the grind, and play until the makeup is erased. 300 dollar tournaments, 1k tournaments, the nightly $162, whatever.