+EV both players coin flip?

[GittyUP]

I am by no means an expert on equity and EV but I just thought about this the other day and I was wondering if it is correct.

Say an UTG raise to 4BB in early position then 3 callers.
Total is 12BB. Button 3bets to 12BB. Your big blind and shove all in for 100BB with AKs. everyone folds except button who calls 100BB and he turns over QQ. The pot is 212BB and you both have ~50% equity. Isn't this +EV poker for both of you?

A more extreme example of this would be in a 3bet pot followed by a 4bet and 5bet allin only to have the 3better fold and the 4better and 5better all in (only to find out they are flipping) The 4better and 5better would share the raisers and 3betters chip loss and make it +EV for both of them.

Sorry to make this last example confusing.

[RichGambler]

[ QUOTE ]
I am by no means an expert on equity and EV but I just thought about this the other day and I was wondering if it is correct.

Say an UTG raise to 4BB in early position then 3 callers.
Total is 12BB. Button 3bets to 12BB. Your big blind and shove all in for 100BB with AKs. everyone folds except button who calls 100BB and he turns over QQ. The pot is 212BB and you both have ~50% equity. Isn't this +EV poker for both of you?

A more extreme example of this would be in a 3bet pot followed by a 4bet and 5bet allin only to have the 3better fold and the 4better and 5better all in (only to find out they are flipping) The 4better and 5better would share the raisers and 3betters chip loss and make it +EV for both of them.

Sorry to make this last example confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your math is wrong!!!!
AKs vs QQ = 54/46

From final 212BB pot 3BB goes to the rake so when you win you win 109BB make it 100 all ins

46x109=5014BB won
54x100=5400BB lost

Final result -386BB down in 100 flips.

[jay_shark]

[ QUOTE ]
I am by no means an expert on equity and EV but I just thought about this the other day and I was wondering if it is correct.

Say an UTG raise to 4BB in early position then 3 callers.
Total is 12BB. Button 3bets to 12BB. Your big blind and shove all in for 100BB with AKs. everyone folds except button who calls 100BB and he turns over QQ. The pot is 212BB and you both have ~50% equity. Isn't this +EV poker for both of you?

A more extreme example of this would be in a 3bet pot followed by a 4bet and 5bet allin only to have the 3better fold and the 4better and 5better all in (only to find out they are flipping) The 4better and 5better would share the raisers and 3betters chip loss and make it +EV for both of them.

Sorry to make this last example confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have some mistakes here .

If utg raises and then you have 3 callers , there should be 1+0.5+16 = 17.5 bb's in play before the button acts . If we assume only the BB and button play the pot , then there is

16.5 + 100 + 100 = 216.5 bb's in total .

Pocket q's has a 54% equity over A-Ks

EV(AKs) = 216.5*0.46 - 99 = 0.59bb's which shows that it's positive EV for both players .

[jogsxyz]

It's possible for both remaining players to both have +EV. The key is to have lots of dead money in the pot.

[GittyUP]

[ QUOTE ]
It's possible for both remaining players to both have +EV. The key is to have lots of dead money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats what I thought. My example was not the greatest but thank you.

[Yepitis]

I am just taking a stab at this but...

Once we know what the final to hands are then no it is not possible for the final two players to both be +EV. They both may be +EV with four players but when we see the cards the QQ is the champ. This is not to say the AKs made a bad play, but only one hand has the best chance to win making it +EV and every other hand -EV.?

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
I am just taking a stab at this but...

Once we know what the final to hands are then no it is not possible for the final two players to both be +EV. They both may be +EV with four players but when we see the cards the QQ is the champ. This is not to say the AKs made a bad play, but only one hand has the best chance to win making it +EV and every other hand -EV.?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, you just need lots of dead money in the pot.

[Yepitis]

Dead money is only dead if you win the hand.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
Dead money is only dead if you win the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dead money is money in the pot that was not put there by the current players in the pot. Dead money is money that is up for grabs. Dead money is wonderful.

[PantsOnFire]

What you have described is how to create +EV situations through the collusion technique of "whip-sawing".