AK pf and deep against stations

[swede554]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys that are raising, are you shoving air into multiple players on the flop or c/f after putting in 1/3 of your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were to go-n-go I'd shove any flop HU and re-evaluate if multiway, but yea folding after sticking in 1/3 of our stack pre kinda sucks, so I like either shoving or calling.

[ger664]

Given this is a cryto midnight special, shoving PF is the most optimal play. u will be flipping at worst.

[ChipSpeak]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys that are raising, are you shoving air into multiple players on the flop or c/f after putting in 1/3 of your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume we are not going to the flop vs multiple opponents with a raise to 20bb's, but if so, we play poker, if they aren't coming over the top of us to a 20bb raise, we are very likely ahead of them. When I say shove post flop I say this assuming 1 villain.

[Cornell Fiji]

Call.

Check-fold unimproved.

I don't really want to chase out A9-AQ with a big preflop raise and I don't want to raise preflop and play a bloated flop out of position when I will miss the flop 2/3 of the time and when I do hit the flop there will be scare cards on board for my opponents.

Shoving is +cEV but it is nowhere near maxEV because we lose the ability to stackadonk who has Ax

[ChipSpeak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys that are raising, are you shoving air into multiple players on the flop or c/f after putting in 1/3 of your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were to go-n-go I'd shove any flop HU and re-evaluate if multiway, but yea folding after sticking in 1/3 of our stack pre kinda sucks, so I like either shoving or calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

This spot is not envious in the least way, it's one of the tougher spots dancing with donks. This is a make the best out of a tough spot.
I can't see jamming 70 bb's in the pot to be the accurate play. Seeing the flop with this many players makes limping -EV, many flops we hit will be dangerous and difficult vs opposition to our aggression post flop... ie ATx flops.. you get check raised when 4 opponents see the flop... tricky spot, made much easier facing 1 opponent.

Limping inflates the pot to a point your chips are in before you realize you're behind. I think vs the donks, the 20bb raise is a good balance between value and fold EV.

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys that are raising, are you shoving air into multiple players on the flop or c/f after putting in 1/3 of your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were to go-n-go I'd shove any flop HU and re-evaluate if multiway, but yea folding after sticking in 1/3 of our stack pre kinda sucks, so I like either shoving or calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

This spot is not envious in the least way, it's one of the tougher spots dancing with donks. This is a make the best out of a tough spot.
I can't see jamming 70 bb's in the pot to be the accurate play. Seeing the flop with this many players makes limping -EV, many flops we hit will be dangerous and difficult vs opposition to our aggression post flop... ie ATx flops.. you get check raised when 4 opponents see the flop... tricky spot, made much easier facing 1 opponent.

Limping inflates the pot to a point your chips are in before you realize you're behind. I think vs the donks, the 20bb raise is a good balance between value and fold EV.

[/ QUOTE ]


The big flaw in your logic (which is a big flaw in the logic of many beginner players) is that your priority is to make your hand easy to play.

You don't want to play your hand so its easy. You want to play your hand so that it is maxEV

[ChipSpeak]

[ QUOTE ]
Call.

Check-fold unimproved.



[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, You are setting yourself up for disaster. what do you consider improving to the point we are confident we are not wawb with 4 opponents? You know how many tough spots donks are going to put you in, I think you have to get more value here than call fold. Shoving 70 bb's in a hand we are behind 22 vs donks with only 9bb's overlay can't be correct, especially vs donks. If we have to shut down the hand because of multiple opponents etc. so be it, we have 50 bb's, it's certainly not a bad stack.

[ChipSpeak]

[ QUOTE ]

The big flaw in your logic (which is a big flaw in the logic of many beginner players) is that your priority is to make your hand easy to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve, making it easier to play it has to be made a larger priority due to the fact we are vs donks here (and lots of em) playing thinking player logic vs donks will get you killed. I assume it's been a while for you, so correct me if I'm wrong, I often find the more experienced players to have lost the touch for the super donks. If I'm wrong here saying the limp is a bad combination of value and danger, can you fill in the blanks? And what flop you hit vs 4 opponents that gets raised do you feel good about?

Edit check raise,,,

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The big flaw in your logic (which is a big flaw in the logic of many beginner players) is that your priority is to make your hand easy to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve, making it easier to play it has to be made a larger priority due to the fact we are vs donks here (and lots of em) playing thinking player logic vs donks will get you killed. I assume it's been a while for you, so correct me if I'm wrong, I often find the more experienced players to have lost the touch for the super donks. If I'm wrong here saying the limp is a bad combination of value and danger, can you fill in the blanks? And what flop you hit vs 4 opponents that gets raised do you feel good about?

Edit check raise,,,

[/ QUOTE ]

I have definitely lost touch with the low stakes donks but I still stand by my advice. I think that if I can explain this point clearly it might prove to be a turning point in your game.

Against the described opponents I am willing to felt most ace high and most king high flops because my opponents will be felting lesser aces/kings. Sometimes this means I lose to two pair or a set, more often I am able to double through someone who is drawing to 3 outs on the flop.

These loose-bad calling stations are not going to fold their AT on a AJ2 board so I will bet 300 on the flop, 650 on the turn, and I will shove the river. Sometimes I will lose to AJ but I will be maximizing value against their range at all times.

You are advocating reraising preflop. Loose-bad calling stations are going to fold ATo to a 3bet from the blinds and because of that we are costing yourselves a great deal of implied odds since they can not fold an ace high flop.

While these players will fold ATo preflop they will never fold 99 preflop to our reraise and when the flop comes down J72 they will go to the felt against our continuation bet. In fact, the only flops that they will not felt with their pocket pairs are flops with an ace or a king on them. By reraising preflop we eliminate the hands that we dominate from the villains range, and these are the very hands that we want to be playing against!

You should not fear letting a dominated hand outflop you. This does not mean that you should always stack off with TPTK against one of these players, you should still be using your hand reading skills, but sometimes you will stack off when they flop a set or two pair and when that happens you should just be content that you maximized your expected value in the hand.

Please post any follow up questions or if you disagree with my points.

Steve



edit: you realize that this pot is already raised right? You used the term limp while I am advocating a smooth call rather than a squeeze.

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
Loose-bad calling stations are going to fold ATo to a 3bet from the blinds and because of that we are costing yourselves a great deal of implied odds since they can not fold an ace high flop.



[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. 90% of Crypto players will call again with anything they've called the first time unless we make an absurdly big bet that may as well be a push.

Also, calling ranges if we shove are probably wider than you would expect. I don't think AQs folds very often here and you often get looked up by PPs.

I think shoving and calling are both reasonable plays. Reraising should be a reasonable play but just isn't.