LO8 Hand

[Rush17]

Hi. This is a 9 handed $80-160 mixed game at the Taj (O8, Stud & Stud8). It was a fairly aggressive line-up, but not off the charts, and I'd say there were 2-3 players who had a lot of expereince with the O8 round. Ironically enough, most of them were holdem players, but whatever.

UTG open raises(solid player)
Fold
Fold
Next player calls(kinda loose, cold calls too lightly preflop, imo, but plays postflop pretty decent. We'll refer to him as "Loose guy")
Me (A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) calls the raise
Fold
Next player calls (pretty clueless)
Fold
Fold

Ok, so there's 4 of us to the flop.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Utg bets. Loose guy raises. I chose to 3 bet it with the nut flush draw. There was one player behind me. He cold called and the Utg just called. Loose guy caps. All call.

My read: Because the Utg didn't cap the flop, it was hard to narrow in on his hand, so at this stage, I can only give him the one pair of Aces. The loose guy I read for the nut low. And I have absolutely no idea what the guy behind me had or what he was drawing to.

The turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Everyone checked.

The river: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Final board: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Utg checked. Loose guy bets.

It's up to me and I should...?

Critique please.

[wiseheart]

I woulda bet the turn hoping to knock out someone else with Ace/Weak-Low, hoping to ensure I can at least pick up one side; but this would depend on whether I thought any of my opponents would fold. So, if I had knocked someone out I would defently call the river, but with your current situation I would go with your read.

Its very player dependent, I mean if you think a raise gets you heads up that I would certainly raise, otherwise I would fold 75% of the time and call 25% of the time.

Hope that isn't too complicated.

[bbartlog]

3-betting flop seems spewy to me. What was the reasoning? Were you trying to get a better high to fold?

I think you can call one bet on the river. Seems to me you are good for high here about one time in four. But I would worry that UTG actually had AAxx and had his turn c/r attempt foiled, and is now angling for another c/r.

[WMB]

I would bet the turn here. As played, I'd raise the river in a heartbeat. I'd think you'd save half the pot with your mediocre 2 way hand.

[bbartlog]

As played, I'd raise the river in a heartbeat.

Really. And what do you think the odds are of one of the other players holding AA, AK, and/or one of the missing sixes are (not to mention the rather unlikely 88/66/JJ)? The only advantage to raising that I can see is that you might get someone to lay down AKxx. But with loose guy checking the turn and then betting this river I think the odds that he has a six in hand are not too bad. I think you end up in a heap of trouble here by raising more often than you gain anything. In order to net one BB with your raise, you have to get called by two lows and an inferior high; more often, even if you're good on the high side, you'll get called by two lows and someone will fold, so you only net half a BB. Since I doubt your high is good here even half the time I think raising is throwing money away. It's much closer to being a fold than being a raise.

[facialabuse]

obv fold>raise>call
and without knowing opponents you can't say the degree to which folding is better than raising

and raise is much closer to fold than call is to raise

[WMB]

[ QUOTE ]
As played, I'd raise the river in a heartbeat.

Really. And what do you think the odds are of one of the other players holding AA, AK, and/or one of the missing sixes are (not to mention the rather unlikely 88/66/JJ)? The only advantage to raising that I can see is that you might get someone to lay down AKxx. But with loose guy checking the turn and then betting this river I think the odds that he has a six in hand are not too bad. I think you end up in a heap of trouble here by raising more often than you gain anything. In order to net one BB with your raise, you have to get called by two lows and an inferior high; more often, even if you're good on the high side, you'll get called by two lows and someone will fold, so you only net half a BB. Since I doubt your high is good here even half the time I think raising is throwing money away. It's much closer to being a fold than being a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're getting 3-1 for either high or low if we raise the river. I'm going to take a shot for the six big bets by raising. On the high side, AK will have a hard time calling 2 cold. Even a weak six would be a tough call. Although poster put bettor on low, he may be wrong and be betting high. By raising, 2nd, third, fourth nut lows will have a hard time calling. Its risky, but again, I'd risk 2 BB to win six here. Obviously I must feel theres a decent chance I can drive the other 2 out. Remember, the turn was checked.

[cgkid]

I think raising the flop is spew as well. It also risks raising out the guy who appears to be the worst player in the hand.

I would bet the turn if checked to. You have a decent chance to fold out a hand that will make you half of the pot, and your high has a chance of being best.

On the river fold>raise>call. Another problem with checking the turn is that raising here looks alot like a two way hand trying to fold out worse for half the pot.

[facialabuse]

sorry for partial hijack but does the pure O8/ob 80/160 ever go? or 40/80? do you get those stud players playing in the pure omaha(and leaking)?

also, playing in games where ppl "put" you on purely promo raises is +EV-what about advertising value? no one's mentioned the quality advertising in a promo raise-it seems like you would HAVE to do this at 80/160 every now and then(but then again ive never played higher than 40/80)

[HLS2k6]

I'll add some unqualified analysis in an effort to get myself thinking and playing better. In my opinion, this hand is very read dependent-- both on the players and on the game.

For example, solid UTG player raises. There are players within this description against whom I'd be reluctant even calling 2 cold in a game where the hand is likely to be a 3 or 4 way pot at best. Really, we have nothing but a naked A2 suited. On the other hand, there are tables and "solid" players against whom this is the easiest call ever.

The flop 3 bet I don't really understand, unless you somehow know everyone is coming along, particularly the guy behind us who called 3 cold. But since you have no idea what he has, I doubt you had that read before the 3 bet. No matter what, I can't see how its meant to be anything but a pure value raise. Just seems <u>very</u> thin here with a low already out and a solid player UTG whose range definitely includes the other 2 Aces. (Maybe there are other reasons to raise here, but they aren't obvious to me, and I don't get the impression they were obvious to you at the time.)

On the river, I like a raise. Your read is the bettor has the nut low, which seems right on given the action. As long as he's only going 1 way, a raise has to be right given the size of this pot (especially considering the turn checked through!). Your line screams nut flush draw, but it could also be hands that got a sizeable piece of the flop and just boated up. I think you can definitely get UTG to fold a slightly better high (AK really), but if the guy behind you is a total moron, he might not be going anywhere no matter what you do. Still, I'd argue Raise &gt; Fold &gt; Call.

As an aside, a very, very solid player (best I've seen at this game) made a promo raise on a scary river that tricked me into folding the best high hand (top 2) at a low stakes Foxwoods game last Saturday night. He actually ended up scooping the hand. I think it was probably the most sophisticated raise I've ever seen at those stakes, and a play that I certainly don't even contemplate, let alone use very often. I was actually inspired to read the scare card bluff section of SS2 again with an eye towards using that bluff as a way to promo a moderate 2 way hand. I never even considered how much I might be leaving on the table by not having a weapon like that in my arsenal.