First time in 2007? 1/2NL

[billybeartku]

i don't fold KK pre in 6man, tho I've had 3 KK vs AAs in the past two days, I'm still not folding KK pre.

[kslghost]

People are not robots and don't always play based on their stats, but perhaps based on how you have been playing. Therefore, putting up a guy's 20/7/1 stat or whatever is not sufficient evidence to fold KK. I think you are folding positive equity over the long run against these types of opponents, unless you can discernably distinguish which ones truly do not 3/4 bet with certain hands.

As for what tubasteve is saying, I think it is absolutely correct in the grand scheme of this strategy forum. Too many people focus on very rare situations which make little difference for their marginal benefit. They want to find amazing folds because it makes them feel coooool. :P

[tubasteve]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think tuba's arguement (never folding KK) is akin to never folding a set. Both concepts are touted in SSNL and MSNL, because you can't go wrong if you never fold those hands. This concept is taught at this level not because it is optimal, but because our handreading/situational skills are not fully devloped.

I belive that as we gain experience, we gain more confidence in our reading abilities. I think HSNL'ers crush the games not only because they extract more value, but they also save a few stacks in these spots. Saving even 1 buyin every 25k hands in these rare spots will have a real effect on your BB/100

[/ QUOTE ]


my argument isnt to never fold KK, its that you will never have enough information to find a fold with KK, so don't worry about it unless there are tons of solid reads over a long sample that the villain is a huge nit

[sh58]

shove

[hotbacon]

have only read OP but if this is a correct fold then you better be damn sure -- through watching their play and hands they show up with, NOT by stats -- that they have AA almost always here. And if that's the case, posting this thread was pointless.
However, it sounds like the only read you have is their stats. If so this is an easy stack off not even close.

[AMT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think tuba's arguement (never folding KK) is akin to never folding a set. Both concepts are touted in SSNL and MSNL, because you can't go wrong if you never fold those hands. This concept is taught at this level not because it is optimal, but because our handreading/situational skills are not fully devloped.

I belive that as we gain experience, we gain more confidence in our reading abilities. I think HSNL'ers crush the games not only because they extract more value, but they also save a few stacks in these spots. Saving even 1 buyin every 25k hands in these rare spots will have a real effect on your BB/100

[/ QUOTE ]


my argument isnt to never fold KK, its that you will never have enough information to find a fold with KK, so don't worry about it unless there are tons of solid reads over a long sample that the villain is a huge nit

[/ QUOTE ]


....the HSNLERs that "save stacks" in these spots do so with specific reads and thousands of hand samples. Steves point stands. /end thread.

[tubasteve]

tubasteve (2:35:00 PM): do you ever fold KK preflop 100bb deep, like ever?
tubasteve (2:35:15 PM): and if so you would need like a ridiculous read over like thousands of hands right?
krantz (2:35:25 PM): back in 2005 maybe, now never
krantz (2:35:26 PM): yep
tubasteve (2:35:21 PM): ok
krantz (2:35:33 PM): and the action would have to be something like
krantz (2:35:35 PM): you raise UTG
krantz (2:35:38 PM): you get 3-bet by BTN
krantz (2:35:41 PM): sb 4-bets small
krantz (2:35:43 PM): BB shoves


[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] krantz <font color="white">(thinly veiled brags ftw) <font color="white"> </font>