Razz 4th street question

[Goldenad]

Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.80 SB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___...
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K:heart

Is this a bet or check here generally? i assume hes calling a bet so would it make sense to bet if my edge is pretty minimal?

[RustyBrooks]

This partially depends on his tendencies. Your edge here is not great but the next street is probably going to bring some changes. Some of those changes will be very straightforward whether you bet here or not, and some will be difficult.

* He'll have position on you the whole hand unless you pair or also hit a K
* some players will often call 5th if there is a bet on 4th
* lots of players will make awful calls on 4th if you both brick again. Like if you brick a J on 5th and he hits a Q, he might call 5th even though he's now waaaaay behind (he needs 2 cards to win)
* If he catches well on 5th and you catch a brick, it's a tough situation

I often check here. I am somewhat more punitive if he gets frisky and bets, I might raise. If he is a player who will call every street, provided that he can pull ahead on the next street, regardless of pot size, I will usually wait for 5th (to make such a call very wrong on 5th)

I often get accused of nazi-ism on this last bit, but using a hand converter is very appreciated.

[RustyBrooks]

Your edge here is about 60:40 by the way.

[ChipsAhoya]

[ QUOTE ]
This partially depends on his tendencies. Your edge here is not great but the next street is probably going to bring some changes. Some of those changes will be very straightforward whether you bet here or not, and some will be difficult.

* He'll have position on you the whole hand unless you pair or also hit a K
* some players will often call 5th if there is a bet on 4th
* lots of players will make awful calls on 4th if you both brick again. Like if you brick a J on 5th and he hits a Q, he might call 5th even though he's now waaaaay behind (he needs 2 cards to win)
* If he catches well on 5th and you catch a brick, it's a tough situation

I often check here. I am somewhat more punitive if he gets frisky and bets, I might raise. If he is a player who will call every street, provided that he can pull ahead on the next street, regardless of pot size, I will usually wait for 5th (to make such a call very wrong on 5th)

I often get accused of nazi-ism on this last bit, but using a hand converter is very appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually bet hands where my brick is 2 pips under his but not 1 (bet J here but not Q) unless I have reason to believe my 3 card hand is significantly worse than his (ie I was stealing). I might bet one under if my hand is perhaps significantly better since I may want to peel 5th anyway depending on what happens.

-ChipsAhoya

[betgo]

I think most people would bet. My style would be generally to check, so that villain won't be sure of how strong my hand is, and to make me less committed.

The flat call on 3rd is standard, but you could also reraise the 6 with a 7 low and a live door card.

[Praxising]

I bet here for a few reasons. 1, a ten is "barely a brick" and he's as bricky as it gets. 2, he probably expects you to so not betting might mean to him there is something wrong with your hand, like you are playing a hidden pair and he might not fold just for that reason. 3, there might be more wrong with his hand than the K and he might fold to the bet seeing it as repping a very strong hand 4, a lot of razz players just won't call a K,Q,J on 4th.

No free cards.

[Andy B]

Worst-case scenario is if the other guy has A2 in the hole. This gives you a .544/.456 edge. Your edge may be small, but it's still an edge. I don't see how checking here will lead to greater value down the road. Get your money in there.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
2, he probably expects you to so not betting might mean to him there is something wrong with your hand, like you are playing a hidden pair and he might not fold just for that reason. 3, there might be more wrong with his hand than the K and he might fold to the bet seeing it as repping a very strong hand

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the main reasons I'd check. It's better for me if he thinks my hand is crappier than it looks, and him not folding is the desired result. If he has a hidden pair or brick I am very happy to let him see 5th st.

The real beauty is when I check here and my opponent bets. Now I can either pop him or let him joust at it on 5th too. Soooo many times people will get locked into a hand like this way behind from 5th on.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
These are the main reasons I'd check. ...
The real beauty is when I check here and my opponent bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and the real ugly here is when that happens and you get sucked-out on the river when he won't fold to your better-looking board that ends up not making your hand. Every choice at this point has benefits and perils.

[RustyBrooks]

So, tell me - what's the difference between your opponent betting, and you calling, and you betting and your opponent calling.

For every hand you can show me where you bet your T and your opponent folds his K, I'll show you 20 where he calls.

So, given that I think he calls here almost all the time, the difference is, in one case, sometimes he'll put you on pocket-nothing and donk off his chips. Given that you have the edge, this is fine. Absolutely there's a risk.

Also, you are not required to bet if things go wrong on 5th/6th, nor are you required to bluff the river.