Heads up NL Cash vs. someone who basically only 3-bets from the BB - Page 2

creedofhubris · #11 08-11-2007, 01:22 PM

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you don't do it every time, you only do it if you feel that your opponent is deviating too much from non-exploitable play.

Also, when i 4-bet in position, it's almost always a minraise (with or without a hand). This allows me the get away from the hand if he pushes, but still prevents him from just calling with speculative hands (no implied odds with 100BBs). Basically, it's a great way to leverage your stack. You're committing 25-30BBs whereas he's gotta commit 100 if he wants to continue.

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Your math seems wrong.

If you pot it from the button, that's 3 BBs. If he repots from the BB, that's up to 9 BBs. Now, if you re-minraise, that's 15 BBs total, and 6 more to him.

I personally would never fold for another 6 BBs. Are there villains who do?

Are you mainly concerned with people who overpot from the BB, might make it 11-12? Still, even if he's overpotting to 12, that would make it 3 -> 12 -> 21, not 25/30.

iSTRONG · #12 08-11-2007, 02:05 PM

yeah, sorry, didn't mean min-reraising. i mean if the pot is 9BB, reraise to 18 BBs.

edit: that doesn't change ur point; which is valid. 25-30BBs is the threshold you can 4-bet to and still fold to a push.

Jeffmet3 · #13 08-11-2007, 10:12 PM

so you're saying, that if we're playing 5/10, and I 3-bet to $90, that you're going to 4-bet me to $180? No one will ever fold to that.

that doesn't seem to accomplish anything, as it doesn't define either of our hands, and especially if you're doing this with mediocre hands, you're building a big pot in which you're probably beat.

Flatcalling the 3-bet and then raising the flop would seem to do a better job.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone advocate smaller raises in which you price in everything.

Jiganti · #14 08-11-2007, 10:19 PM

Johnnykran is a very active player, decent but quite aggressive. You really have to see where you are at by 4-betting preflop. Doesn't matter if it gives anything away because you're not going to have to get in a difficult river situation like the one you got into.

I think you've just got to work on being able to make decisions in bigger pots. In a video I watched on CardRunners, AaronBeen talks a lot about how people use pot control way too much, when they should really be working on their game and being able to make decisions for their stack, instead of missing out on a lot of value by controlling the pot.

Nichomacheo · #15 08-11-2007, 10:55 PM

What happened in the above hand?

IronFly · #16 08-12-2007, 12:03 AM

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so you're saying, that if we're playing 5/10, and I 3-bet to $90, that you're going to 4-bet me to $180? No one will ever fold to that.

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20% of your stack going in pre while OOP holding something thats out of line is definitely a mistake. If they don't fold, thats good for you.

edit: IMHO 3-1 odds OOP are not enough to play speculative hands when the implied odds are low (100BB stacks).

IronFly · #17 08-12-2007, 12:08 AM

BTW, about this "basically only 3-bets from the BB" thing. I basically only 3-bet from the BB. If I re-raise from the SB it is a 4-bet. I don't find it unusually that this opponent "basically only 3-bets from the BB".

creedofhubris · #18 08-12-2007, 02:46 AM

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BTW, about this "basically only 3-bets from the BB" thing. I basically only 3-bet from the BB. If I re-raise from the SB it is a 4-bet. I don't find it unusually that this opponent "basically only 3-bets from the BB".

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What the OP means is that the villain doesn't flatcall from the BB. He raises (3-bets) or folds.

As for your point about folding speculative hands getting 3:1 OOP -- I agree that this is usually a mistake, but depending on relative postflop ability it might not be. The dudes who are constantly reraising are also generally good at playing in inflated pots OOP.

iSTRONG · #19 08-12-2007, 05:33 AM

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so you're saying, that if we're playing 5/10, and I 3-bet to $90, that you're going to 4-bet me to $180? No one will ever fold to that.

that doesn't seem to accomplish anything, as it doesn't define either of our hands, and especially if you're doing this with mediocre hands, you're building a big pot in which you're probably beat.

Flatcalling the 3-bet and then raising the flop would seem to do a better job.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone advocate smaller raises in which you price in everything.

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Yes. They can't call profitably with crap hands out of position. They haven't got the implied odds. Even if he's got a hand like AJs... he can't just call there. He's gonna be hitting the flop a third of the time... You've essentially put him to a decision for all of his chips... while risky only 1/3 - 1/5th of yours.

Obviously, this only works when you're in position.

iSTRONG · #20 08-12-2007, 05:35 AM

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BTW, about this "basically only 3-bets from the BB" thing. I basically only 3-bet from the BB. If I re-raise from the SB it is a 4-bet. I don't find it unusually that this opponent "basically only 3-bets from the BB".

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What the OP means is that the villain doesn't flatcall from the BB. He raises (3-bets) or folds.

As for your point about folding speculative hands getting 3:1 OOP -- I agree that this is usually a mistake, but depending on relative postflop ability it might not be. The dudes who are constantly reraising are also generally good at playing in inflated pots OOP.

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I usually play vs opponents that are worse than me. Especially when i have positional advantage. Obv, if you don't know how to play big pots then you shouldn't encourage villain to make a small theoretical mistake by calling the small raise out of position.