Always raise when first in?

[rodders133]

I have read numerous articles that says if you are first to enter a pot and are sitting in mid/late position, you should bring it in for a raise.
I can see some sense in this as you could take the blinds uncontested. However, I play micro NL cash (0.5/0.10), so taking the blinds I dont see as being a big deal.
Lets say Im in late position and I get suited connectors, say 78. Should I raise with this if first in?, If so why?
I would have thought that with that hand I want as many people in as possible. Its quite easy to get away from if I miss.
Any advice would be helpful

[McGrain]

I agree that mid-late position should always be a re-raise. The most likely call will come from the blinds, on whom you will have position, when a continuation bet will usually do it (unless they have hit in which case you are done with the hand). If a guy has position on you then the best equaliser is to have shown strength. Finally, you let the BB in with random when you just call (assuming you have no raise behind you) and it's situations like this that can really end up costing you.

The following is all from Harrington:

<font color="red"> </font> Most raises look like aces to most players.

When aggression is wrong it isn't wrong by much.

When possible be the guy raising, not the guy calling.

[rodders133]

Ok, I understand the concept of letting the BB see a free flop with random cards being a bad move, but in this situation is it such a bad thing. I either hit the flop hard or I am done with the hand. This probably sounds stupid but I cant help think that his hand is nearly irrelevent.
Also, arent the Harrington books tourny based. I would raise in a tourney, depending what level it was at, as the blinds might well be worth stealing.

[McGrain]

You want to be able to win hands WITHOUT hitting a flop.

The Harrington advice holds because bullying your opponents is just as important (though often harder) in cash games than tournament play.

Limping isn't evil or anything - I don't think it's a ridiculous move. But I would never, ever call into an unopened pot mid-late. It's pretty tame poker actually, in my opinion - you may get some other guys posting who think otherwise though.

Good luck with it.

[rodders133]

I understand what you mean about winning hands without hitting a flop, and on a lot of occasions I will do this.
I may well get berated for this next bit because the chances of it happening are so slim.

All stacks at 100 BB for arguments sake

Hypothetical scenario 1 - I have 78s and raise 4xBB from the cutoff. Everyone folds, I win 15c.

Scenario 2 - Same hand and raise, the BB calls, flop comes
A T 2r, BB checks, I bet, BB calls......................I lose 40c.

Scenario 3 - Same as scenario 2 but when I bet flop, BB folds, I win 45c

Scenario 4 - I limp with 78s, BB checks with 96. Flop comes
9 10 2, BB checks, I check, turn comes a 6.
At this level there is a good chance I am stacking him with his 2 pair. If I raised pre flop he would have mucked the hand.

Is it not worth sacrificing winning a few cents for the oppurtunity of stacking someone?

[basementproject]

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetical scenario 1 - I have 78s and raise 4xBB from the cutoff. Everyone folds, I win 15c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. That's 1.5BB you wouldn't have had before.

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 2 - Same hand and raise, the BB calls, flop comes
A T 2r, BB checks, I bet, BB calls......................I lose 40c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mathematically speaking, the flop very rarely hits either opponent when in 2-way pots. In most situations at 10NL, villain is going to fold here, and if he doesn't, oh well. You're going to pick up 4-5BB most of the time you do this, the wins will make up for the losses.

Plus, maybe the flop gives you a good draw. If so, you can semibluff into your opponent and once your draw hits, stack him off. If you had simply limped, all of the value of your draw will be shot, or nonexistent.


[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 3 - Same as scenario 2 but when I bet flop, BB folds, I win 45c

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what you hope for. 45 cents is 4.5BB. That's huge in relative terms. You can't always stack opp every time you play a hand, so if that's what your expecting, you need to redefine the way you view results.

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 4 - I limp with 78s, BB checks with 96. Flop comes
9 10 2, BB checks, I check, turn comes a 6.
At this level there is a good chance I am stacking him with his 2 pair. If I raised pre flop he would have mucked the hand.

Is it not worth sacrificing winning a few cents for the oppurtunity of stacking someone?

[/ QUOTE ]

You never know opp's holding preflop, and a lot of players at 10NL call 4xBB preflop with [censored] worse than 9 6.

You can't always limp hoping to stack, because in reality, you aren't going to hit straights or flushes or even sets all that often. Basically, you'd just be donating a BB every time you do this, and hoping every now and then the poker gods throw cards your way.

You gotta create value through agression, and exploit your opps' weakness to it. GL.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read numerous articles that says if you are first to enter a pot and are sitting in mid/late position, you should bring it in for a raise. I can see some sense in this as you could take the blinds uncontested. However, I play micro NL cash (0.5/0.10), so taking the blinds I dont see as being a big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]
First, it's a good result on average to take the blinds. The blinds are always worth stealing. Even at NL $10, it is common for winning players to win less than 3/4 of a big blind per hand on the button, and if everyone folds, you win twice that.

Second, you don't regret raising quality hands when you get called by a player in the blinds. Your money hasn't been thrown away. You have made the pot larger when you have a decent hand and position, so you should expect to win most of the larger pot.


It's not far from wrong to raise when you are the first player outside the blinds to enter the pot. I hesitate to describe exceptions in the beginners' forum, but here are some examples:

If someone behind you frequently reraises, or calls too many of your raises, and then uses position and aggression to take the pot away from you most of the time, then raising may be a losing proposition even with some decent hands. However, open limping may be better than folding, as the blinds will make up a larger proportion of the pot.

Against a maniac in the blinds who bluffs you out of most pots and who will often stack off with weak hands, you may want to limp in even with quite decent hands. The idea is that raising just increases your losses when you get bluffed, while the stack sizes limit your gains when you can take a stand.

Against a really bad player, say one who calls down with any pair, seeing a flop is so profitable that you don't want your opponent to fold. Players who are that bad, but who fold to preflop raises, are rare.

If your raise means your opponents put you specifically on AK, you might want to raise with everything except for AK. AK is a strong hand, and you'll still win if you limp in with AK, but not if you raise and turn over your hand.

If a player acting after you is raising very aggressively, then you might be able to get more money into the pot with a strong hand by limping with the intention of reraising.

[GeeBeeQED]

I can't get past the fact our hero is playing in a nickle dime blind NL game. We have to read the players first. Let me tell you about them. They are all losing players, probably even our hero. They are playing in this kind of game because they can't accumulate enough funds to play bigger. Many of them realize they are not winning and are playing here to try to gain experience and work out why. Some are just here screwing around with thier $5 nightly budjet. These are not "Players", they are "gamblers".

I think you get the biggest value when you limp with these hands.

Your going to get called and have to play after the flop about 95% of the time with a puny 4xbb raise. Hey, these players got to see the flop before they know what the have right? Besides that, they are not thinking about what the hero has. There are .05-.10 players remember.

By raising with these kinds of hands your effectively putting yourself in a poss to have to win even more with them (double) post flop. That's right, double the pot post flop on the times you hit. What your looking for is the donks playing naked Aces and Naked Kings (A or K and 8 lower) to hit top pair when you hit bigger. They are going to call off all thier chips with top pair. Remember, were talking about .05-.10 players here.

These players call too much and they play too many hands preflop. That is their mistake. You have to play in such a way that allows these players to make "thier" mistake as much as possible. when you have the hand, you bet enough to have them calling against pot odds.

If you want to play in the style you suggest (maybe your ready to move on) then you should be doing it in bigger games where the players are experianced enough to at least understand what your representing with your preflop raise and continuation bet on the flop. Where a player might lay down top pair if the betting pattern is telling them thier beat.

In these penny limit games you have to grind it out with better hands. You win by correctly assessing when your ahead and getting them to call off thier chips. I'd say most of these players (maybe 60%) will call off 2/3 pot bets to the river with 2nd pair. 10-20% of them will do it with 3rd pair. Let them make this error.

Correct strategy is more subdued, more thoughtful, less aggresive in these kinds of games. Kill them by taking many many bites and understand there is no killer roll them over strategy in these kinds of games. They are frought with wide variance. Play good ABC poker and whittle them down.

Dave

[basementproject]

[ QUOTE ]
Your going to get called and have to play after the flop about 95% of the time with a puny 4xbb raise. Hey, these players got to see the flop before they know what the have right? Besides that, they are not thinking about what the hero has. There are .05-.10 players remember.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just hit the nail on the head as to why you should raise. Because they're going to call most of the time.

And then when the flop doesn't hit them, which will be mostly always, they'll fold to your cbet. They are bad players, but most of them aren't total idiots. They'll play 'any two can win' preflop, but if they dont hit on the flop, most of 'em are gone quicker than you can even bet.

[PantsOnFire]

To answer your question, you have assess the reason why you would raise. And to do this, you also need to have a read on your opponents.

You can raise for value with good hands that figure to be the best at the moment. This is especially important if the players behind you are loose or the blinds are loose. You have built a bigger pot while you are ahead which is good.

You also raise the pot to define your hand. However, now the read on the players is very important. With loose, calling stations, sometimes even a decent pf raise is not going to tell you much about their hand other than it's worth playing to them. On the other hand, a re-raise, unless from a maniac, now gives you some clue as to the strength of their hand. As well, if you don't raise and now get a multi-way pot and head to the flop, you can't range other players well since their starting hands could be a lot of cards. This makes playing the flop difficult unless you have a great made hand or a great draw. TPWK and second pair here might be ahead or might not. You just don't know because an unraised pot is a minefield.

Another reason to raise is deception. If you always raise with the same good hands, others will now be defining your hand and you don't want that. So raising with 87s is an example of this.

Another reason to raise is to take control of the hand. If you get a caller or two and the flop comes, they are going to be looking to see what you are going to do now, and usually it's going to be following up your aggression by betting again.

So about some reasons not to raise. If the players are generally passive and limped pots are common, then don't bother raising with hands like 87s or 44. If the norm is a multi-way unraised pot, then play along and see a flop cheap. If you find yourself raising a hand like QQ and consistently get several callers, then you need to raise more. But this also defines a loose game. Now hands like 99-JJ maybe should not be raised but played for set value. As well, raising a hand like ATs and getting lots of callers can make the flop play difficult, even if you hit an A.

Here are things you should avoid. Limping with a hand that has great starting value. You are simply allowing others into the pot cheaply to outdraw you. Raising for deception with hands like 87s when you get lots of callers. You are likely putting money into the pot when behind which is not good. Don't be predictable and always raise with good hands and limp with marginal hands. Occasionally limp with a monster and raise with a marginal hand.