10/20 - KK - semi-bluffing top set

[Heisenb3rg]

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>
planning to check the river UI or fold river UI if bet into...

Player is tricky Lag..

Do I have enough fold equity here to justify the investment?
Not just folding hearts but his air?

Any value in making him spew on the river if he does happen to have A hearts and he caps me on the turn, then the baord pairs?

Also, in an optimal strategy, what kind of hand would be best for bluff raising here some % of the time? I thought "KK" at the time, but maybe this is wrong and I just justified a spew?

[milesdyson]

honestly when he checks the turn after checkraising the flop i put him on a stronger range than if he had just bet the turn, which he should do with plenty of flopped semibluffs turned pure bluffs (QT Q9 T9 97 76).

i would not raise the turn vs. a bet on this card, so i am no raising his turn checkraise.

[Heisenb3rg]

I wouldnt raise his turn bet either...
It was more that his line looks so strong, yet I dont care, so ironically thought I had more fold equity..

His range is very heavily weighted towards flushes after a c/r and he should know that I know that

[milesdyson]

but you said in your OP "Not just folding hearts but his air?"

which imo is a good question. because he isn't folding a heart. so he can know that you should know that he should know what he should know, and at the end of the day, he's gonna say "oh well let's see those nuts."

[Flintoff]

I quite like the line. But I dont do it!

[ILOVEPOKER929]

3bet the flop. Given that you just called and the villain checked, check the turn also. Given that you bet the turn, dont 3bet. Hes never folding a better hand and you could get capped. Instead of 3betting the turn save that bet for a crying call on the river. I hate the way this hand was played.


Your quote:

"Also, in an optimal strategy, what kind of hand would be best for bluff raising here some % of the time? I thought "KK" at the time, but maybe this is wrong and I just justified a spew?"

Why are you even thinking about this? I am aghast at such a flagrant misuse of mental energy. First of all, you didnt bluffraise the turn, you bluff-3bet the turn. There is no optimal hand to bluff-3bet with in this spot. It should never be down. Bluffraising this turn is different: Im sure there are some spots where you can raise the turn against certain opponents that love to bet/fold, but you should never bluffraise the turn with a hand that must call a 3bet like your KK. If you make this play, you should have a hand that is drawing dead once 3bet.

[Raist0000]

I hate the turn 3-bet too. If he's bluffing you are indifferent between calling or 3-betting. If he has a small heart I don't think he is checkraising the turn, usually he is betting or checkcalling with a small heart I suppose. And if he has a big heart he is never folding it even if you 3bet.

edit: well, if he's bluffing it's better to 3bet, to not chop if another heart comes, but even then...
Ilovepoker929: why do you think it's better to 3bet the flop instead of raising a safe turn?

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt raise his turn bet either...
It was more that his line looks so strong, yet I dont care, so ironically thought I had more fold equity..

His range is very heavily weighted towards flushes after a c/r and he should know that I know that

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you forget how to play poker? Youre assuming someone should know that you know something? This isnt Theory of Poker. This is real life poker. Youre not playing your best friend HU, youre playing some tricky lag online who doesnt care who you are let alone what you think. 99% of the time you go beyond the 3rd level online or in live play, you'll simply be leveling yourself and thats just a needless waste of your hard-earned money.

[freshjuuuiice]

KK is not a bluffing hand or a semi bluffing hand in this case. KK is rarely a bluffing hand on any board. IE: raising the turn is so very very wrong

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]

Ilovepoker929: why do you think it's better to 3bet the flop instead of raising a safe turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever I have a strong hand with a lot of possible "action killer" cards on the turn, I prefer to get as much money in on the flop as possible. For example If I was HU in position with a hand like JT on an 987r board and I bet and some villain check/raised me I would generally 3bet the flop right away vs waiting til the turn to raise becuz a 5,6,T,J,A could kill my action on the turn. Thats too many cards, so I'd rather get the money in now while I still have an eager participant.

In this actual hand. If the villain doesnt have a heart, that means 9 hearts and any Ace could potentionally kill our action. Thats why Im 3betting the flop with this strong of a hand becuz with so many possible scare cards, there's no guarantee the villain will bet the turn.