Basic legal things everyone should know

[sixfour]

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Anything you make with some minimum level of creativity and fix in some sort of medium has a certain level of copyright protection. for example, your blog is copyrighted. I'm rusty on this, but I think you may have to register a copy with the Copyright Office to sue someone for infringement. currently it looks like copyright protection may last forever, but it's up to Congress.

you can acquire trademark rights simply by selling goods under a certain mark. however, it may be better for you to actually register your mark with the Patent and Trademark Office (PTO).

getting a patent is a huge pain in the ass. there are all sorts of requirements and to even file an application you must be a patent attorney.

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A lot of this is somewhat fuzzy, although my IP learning was under UK/EU systems rather than the US (although IIRC you're under Berne as well now wrt copyright) so I could be incorrect - over here copyright has no system of registration whatsoever, and I think that's now the case in the US as well. Same goes for trying to enforce your rights. However if it comes down to actually trying to settle anything, having some kind of way to prove you've done what you have is very, very helpful.

Trademarks have two tiers as stated, registered and not, I forget the differences right now but if you can actually register your mark (which you can't do for some things that are subject to unregistered trademark protections) you get some additional benefits.

Patents are an obvious pain, but you do not need to be a patent attorney to file. Clearly anyone that's filing an application should use one (if you're going to spend the money on getting one, and they're not cheap, it's worth doing it correctly if you can actually exploit it for robusto-making sums, you'll want to do it correctly), but you definitely don't need to use one to make an app over here.

[x] IANAL
[x] Hedley Byrne applies
[x] my IP course involved Spandau Ballet records
[ ] said course went brilliantly and I'm actively looking for a career in law

[slickpoppa]

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Lawyers,

Here's a question. Perhaps a silly one, but one I've wondered about a lot.

I sign LOTS of signature pages. In these cases I'm generally sent a bunch of docs w/ "Sign Here" stickies on them and then I send back the signature page only. I usually actually read what I'm sent, so I know what I'm signing. But what's to keep someone from substituting the middle pages after I send it back? And at that point it just becomes my word against theirs in terms of what I actually read and signed.

I guess this can be addressed to a degree by having to initial every page. And in most of these cases, there are lots of parties involved. Anyhow, I guess what I'm asking is, in the case of less formal contracts when you have a few pages that you're doing with another individual, are there things you should be making sure to do in case there's a dispute - like at least initialing every page? Or more?

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I'm not sure if this is what you were saying, but the most important thing is to get the OTHER party to initial each page. You initialing every page doesn't prevent the other party from producing their own version of the middle pages and simply claiming that you didn't initial every page and that your copy of the contract is the forgery.

An even more secure way to protect yourself from forgery would be to get the signature page notarized and bind all the pages of the contract together so someone can't just insert a phony middle page or claim that a fake page was inserted. Thats probably not necessary though with most people you deal with.

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Having the other party initial all the pages won't work!

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It's not ironclad of course, but do you care to elaborate on that?

[fnord_too]

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Oh, and you cannot really bury things in the fine print. I am a bit fuzzy on what is considered incorrigible, but if a judge finds something in the contract incorrigible I believe that is grounds for the wronged (duped) party to void the contract.

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You are referring to the doctrine of unconscionability. Incorrigible is the wrong word.

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Yeah, my memory pulled a fast one on me there.

A couple of other things:
An advertisement is not considered an offer but rather it is an invitation to negotiate. (I am unclear as to when it crosses the fraud/false advertising line.)

Salesmen are allowed a certain amount of exageration, termed puffing. Again, I am not sure where it crosses the line.

[jaydub]

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Lawyers,

Here's a question. Perhaps a silly one, but one I've wondered about a lot.

I sign LOTS of signature pages. In these cases I'm generally sent a bunch of docs w/ "Sign Here" stickies on them and then I send back the signature page only. I usually actually read what I'm sent, so I know what I'm signing. But what's to keep someone from substituting the middle pages after I send it back? And at that point it just becomes my word against theirs in terms of what I actually read and signed.

I guess this can be addressed to a degree by having to initial every page. And in most of these cases, there are lots of parties involved. Anyhow, I guess what I'm asking is, in the case of less formal contracts when you have a few pages that you're doing with another individual, are there things you should be making sure to do in case there's a dispute - like at least initialing every page? Or more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this is what you were saying, but the most important thing is to get the OTHER party to initial each page. You initialing every page doesn't prevent the other party from producing their own version of the middle pages and simply claiming that you didn't initial every page and that your copy of the contract is the forgery.

An even more secure way to protect yourself from forgery would be to get the signature page notarized and bind all the pages of the contract together so someone can't just insert a phony middle page or claim that a fake page was inserted. Thats probably not necessary though with most people you deal with.

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Having the other party initial all the pages won't work!

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It's not ironclad of course, but do you care to elaborate on that?

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Because they can simply initial the pages they later insert.

J

[gobbomom]

Can a law firm keep a trust account in their possession after the client has released/ fired them?

Also: how does one get a lien released?

(Said law firm slapped a lien on the trust acct. after they were fired)

[Rococo]

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Oh, and you cannot really bury things in the fine print. I am a bit fuzzy on what is considered incorrigible, but if a judge finds something in the contract incorrigible I believe that is grounds for the wronged (duped) party to void the contract.

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OP - nice thread idea. The above quoted is something I've always wondered about. For example, my friend (a lawyer) is working on a pro bono case representing subprime borrowers who recently defaulted on their mortgages. The contention is that the subprime borrowers (not native English speakers, mainly Hispanic) were grossly misled concerning their mortgage payment levels, and the actual structure of the debt.

Let's assume the actual terms were "buried" within the contract but extant somehow. My gut says the borrower in this case should be accountable for reading the contract and understanding it... but I guess not?

-Al

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Usually, people who enter contracts are imputed to have read and understood the language of the contract... but not always. There are equitable remedies available to set aside the contract (sometimes)... if the contract was "unconscionable," or if there was a severe disparity in bargaining position, etc.

To counter these possibilities, however, a lot of today's contracts have broad "I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTOOD THIS CONTRACT AND I HAVE CONSULTED WITH MY ATTORNEY" language that the parties have everyone initial, so it's much harder to contend you didn't know what you were signing.

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A routine example of an unconscionable contract were the old "rent to own" deals for TVs. You signed a long form contract in which you agreed to make a series of payments that totaled many multiples of the total cost of the TV. If you were a day late with even the last payment, they could repo the TV.

[slickpoppa]

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Lawyers,

Here's a question. Perhaps a silly one, but one I've wondered about a lot.

I sign LOTS of signature pages. In these cases I'm generally sent a bunch of docs w/ "Sign Here" stickies on them and then I send back the signature page only. I usually actually read what I'm sent, so I know what I'm signing. But what's to keep someone from substituting the middle pages after I send it back? And at that point it just becomes my word against theirs in terms of what I actually read and signed.

I guess this can be addressed to a degree by having to initial every page. And in most of these cases, there are lots of parties involved. Anyhow, I guess what I'm asking is, in the case of less formal contracts when you have a few pages that you're doing with another individual, are there things you should be making sure to do in case there's a dispute - like at least initialing every page? Or more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this is what you were saying, but the most important thing is to get the OTHER party to initial each page. You initialing every page doesn't prevent the other party from producing their own version of the middle pages and simply claiming that you didn't initial every page and that your copy of the contract is the forgery.

An even more secure way to protect yourself from forgery would be to get the signature page notarized and bind all the pages of the contract together so someone can't just insert a phony middle page or claim that a fake page was inserted. Thats probably not necessary though with most people you deal with.

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Having the other party initial all the pages won't work!

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It's not ironclad of course, but do you care to elaborate on that?

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Because they can simply initial the pages they later insert.

J

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Do you not understand the evidentiary difference between Party A having pages with Party B's initials on them, and Party B having pages with Party B's initials on them? Which is more credible?

[bobman0330]

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Lawyers,

Here's a question. Perhaps a silly one, but one I've wondered about a lot.

I sign LOTS of signature pages. In these cases I'm generally sent a bunch of docs w/ "Sign Here" stickies on them and then I send back the signature page only. I usually actually read what I'm sent, so I know what I'm signing. But what's to keep someone from substituting the middle pages after I send it back? And at that point it just becomes my word against theirs in terms of what I actually read and signed.

I guess this can be addressed to a degree by having to initial every page. And in most of these cases, there are lots of parties involved. Anyhow, I guess what I'm asking is, in the case of less formal contracts when you have a few pages that you're doing with another individual, are there things you should be making sure to do in case there's a dispute - like at least initialing every page? Or more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this is what you were saying, but the most important thing is to get the OTHER party to initial each page. You initialing every page doesn't prevent the other party from producing their own version of the middle pages and simply claiming that you didn't initial every page and that your copy of the contract is the forgery.

An even more secure way to protect yourself from forgery would be to get the signature page notarized and bind all the pages of the contract together so someone can't just insert a phony middle page or claim that a fake page was inserted. Thats probably not necessary though with most people you deal with.

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Having the other party initial all the pages won't work!

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It's not ironclad of course, but do you care to elaborate on that?

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Oh, so you want them to initial your copy, rather than you initialing theirs! That makes perfect sense, my bad.

[garcia1000]

One thing people should know is swongs.

Wait, sorry.

I meant, one thing people should know, is that ignorance is not a defence. You are expected to know the relevant law. For example, if you rent an apartment, you are expected to know the law governing things like breaking lease early, contract terms, etc.

[JCool]

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Lawyers,

Here's a question. Perhaps a silly one, but one I've wondered about a lot.

I sign LOTS of signature pages. In these cases I'm generally sent a bunch of docs w/ "Sign Here" stickies on them and then I send back the signature page only. I usually actually read what I'm sent, so I know what I'm signing. But what's to keep someone from substituting the middle pages after I send it back? And at that point it just becomes my word against theirs in terms of what I actually read and signed.

I guess this can be addressed to a degree by having to initial every page. And in most of these cases, there are lots of parties involved. Anyhow, I guess what I'm asking is, in the case of less formal contracts when you have a few pages that you're doing with another individual, are there things you should be making sure to do in case there's a dispute - like at least initialing every page? Or more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this is what you were saying, but the most important thing is to get the OTHER party to initial each page. You initialing every page doesn't prevent the other party from producing their own version of the middle pages and simply claiming that you didn't initial every page and that your copy of the contract is the forgery.

An even more secure way to protect yourself from forgery would be to get the signature page notarized and bind all the pages of the contract together so someone can't just insert a phony middle page or claim that a fake page was inserted. Thats probably not necessary though with most people you deal with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having the other party initial all the pages won't work!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not ironclad of course, but do you care to elaborate on that?

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Oh, so you want them to initial your copy, rather than you initialing theirs! That makes perfect sense, my bad.

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How about you guys stop arguing about nonsense and just use a third party escrow agent to verify the authenticity of the executed contractual documents?