LO8 B&M question

[davebreal]

last night I played $3/$6 O8 for a while, typical B&M game, lots of loose calls and family pots. Also, people were calling down with a lot of really ugly low hands. On one particular hand I was dealt A2QQ single-suited on the button... everyone limped in, I pondered making it 2-bets to go but instead just called. I ended up scooping with my low and the flush.

My question is should I be raising a decent A2s everytime while playing B&M? Only while in position? Do I need a 3rd wheel card here to make it a profitable play?

Keep in mind that I'm mainly a online PLO8 player, so I'm more used to "pushing" than "pulling". Hands like A2QQs are an auto-raise in PLO8, especially when it's possible to shorten the field.

[wackjob]

I'd raise that, especially in a poor B&M game where you can just about count it will get checked to you after the flop and you can make a good decision.

[redmarion]

I'd mostly be looking to raise when my low has some back-up. That being said. If you have multiway action & you're in position, raising will not drive anyone out. This is an opportune time to build a pot. If you are eventually 1/4'd then you'll have a better chance of still making a small profit (get their money in the pot before they fold). When you wiff the flop, you will have a small chance occassionally for a free card. Otherwise, you can fold a wiff/conterfiet flop. You have increased your equity in position, but only loose one big bet when you fold. On the times that you win scoops/3/4's, you will easily recover those one big bet surrenders. The 25% to 35% that you win will easily cover any minimum losses on those raises.

(BB*n) is "almost" always more profitable than (SB*n) in multiway action when n>4. The larger 'n' the more you should lean toward raising. When 'n' =4, flip coin for game theory rasing decision (it will be random enough so your opponents can't pick up your methodology). "n<4" is not usually a good place to raise except for the occassional steal on players that are capable of folding.

[ QUOTE ]
everytime while playing B&M?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't recommend using always/everytime or never in setting up my game plan.

[Dire]

The only reason you wouldn't push an equity edge is if you thought it would end up in a negative expectation because the information you give to your opponents allows them to make better decisions on later streets. Given your description of your opponents, they're not going to be able to take advantage of the information you give them when you raise preflop. So you absolutely should raise there. A2QQ is going to have an absolutely enormous equity edge in a family pot.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is should I be raising a decent A2s everytime while playing B&M?

[/ QUOTE ]Dave - It's a good question.

My answer is, "No, you shouldn't be raising a decent A2s everytime."

I wouldn't even raise with it most of the time in a 3/6 B&M game, not even from on the button. However, there are plenty of very good Omaha-8 players who strongly disagree with me on this point.

What you do on the first betting round affects the way your capable opponents play, not only on the first betting round but on all four betting rounds. And it continues to affect the way they play on subsequent hands.

If it became clear to me that you always raised from on the button with a decent suited ace plus a deuce, I'd start playing you for very possibly having that type hand when you raised, and I'd play you for probably not having that type hand when you didn't raise. (And then you chould change gears and fool me, at least for a while).

To my way of thinking, whether to raise or not before the flop (or any time) depends more on the way you think the raise will affect your opponents (individually and collectively) than on the actual cards you hold.

Playing your opponents may seem vague and at least is not well defined as playing your cards, which makes playing your opponents admittedly more difficult to pull off. I sure don't always get it right. But it's somehow very satisfying when I do.

It's generally more difficult for me to play correctly myself when there has been a pre-flop raise from an opponent. I'm probably more likely to make a mistake, either folding when I should call or calling when I should fold.

Turning that around, you must make play more difficult for your opponents when you raise yourself. Anyone seems more prone to make a mistake when play is more difficult.

In other words, you must make the game tougher for your opponents whenever you raise.

However, maybe that's not as good for you as it might at first seem it should be. And if they start correctly putting you on cards, both when you do raise and when you don't, then it's bad for you.

Seems like we've been over and over this topic again and again. You're not likely to get general agreement on this forum as to if and when you should raise before the flop - not even if you specify it's a limit 3/6 B&M game.

Buzz

[moneyshot]

should you be raising A2 suited everytime in a low-limit B&M game? No, for most of the reasons Buzz gave.

However "should you raise A2 suited with a table full of limpers in front of you on the button in a low-limit O8 game?" Absolutely. You have an equity edge and want to build a pot. You don't want to worry about knocking out the blinds since you will be collecting more bets from everyone else. Also, since everyone is calling the flop, no need to worry about building a pot so big that you are pricing bad draws into calling.

Low limit 08 tends to be a "nuts-nuts" game. You have draws at both. You want to get money into the pot. You will get calls from A3s for low and king-high flushs much more than at lower levels. Definitely raise.

[Frond]

I was thinking about this subject the other day while playing in a live 3-6 O8 game. To take it a bit further, say you are in a loose game and you are on the button with a strong A2xx hand, lots of limpers in front of you and you are planning on raising but there is one raise in front of you, should you reraise here or just all? Wonder how some of you feel about this? I would think that for max value if you were planning on raising PF that you should go ahead and Reraise. Not sure. Let me know how some of you feel abou this. I play very tightly in O8 & I am very good at mucking with a bad flop so for me a reraise would be the way to go.

[steamboatin]

I have pretty much stopped raising preflop.

[Frond]

It can be a tough call whether or not to raise PF because you miss the flop a lot or get a counterfitted low etc. I still lean towards raising

[redmarion]

Putting in the re-raise is table dynamic because you want to increase the pot size. If it tends to thin the field, I would go with the call (to get the overcalls). If you are in a no-foldem dynamic, then go ahead and re-raise when you have n>6. Even when you miss & have to fold, you have lost 2 big bets while increasing the pot by 6+ big bets. You'll occasionally loose 2 big bets 15% to 20% of the time, but you'll gain back those bets on the 35% of the time when you scoop or 3/4 your opposition on those 15 to 20 or more big bet pots.