Dealing w/ wide flop 3 betting ranges

[waffle]

So you guys actually think someone like this would raise a flush draw or just bare overs on the turn a lot of the time facing a cap and a turn bet?

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
So you guys actually think someone like this would raise a flush draw or just bare overs on the turn a lot of the time facing a cap and a turn bet?

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You never know, but the real problem is that you're putting in that 1.5bb when your equity is not greater then 50% instead of 1bb. What are you buying with that fraction fo a bb in -EV? Not letting him have a free card and the ability to fold on the turn. These things are mitigated by the fact that you may fold the best hand and that he will often deny himself a free card.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

This is just one of those situations in poker where everyone of your options sux. When this is the case getting to the showdown as cheaply as possible is usually the best plan.

[waffle]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just one of those situations in poker where everyone of your options sux. When this is the case getting to the showdown as cheaply as possible is usually the best plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not convinced that showdown > * is the best plan, I'd rather examine the situation in detail, I guess I'll try to put together an arguement for the other side tomorrow.

[milesdyson]

waffle i was going to suggest a flop cap and turn bet/fold but whatev. i do do that sometimes fwiw. the river is tough if he calls your turn bet - you should probably be check folding but by then you have made the pot fairly big

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is just one of those situations in poker where everyone of your options sux. When this is the case getting to the showdown as cheaply as possible is usually the best plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not convinced that showdown > * is the best plan, I'd rather examine the situation in detail, I guess I'll try to put together an arguement for the other side tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt, you suggested 3 plans of action once 3bet on the flop, and as you probably have guessed since weve played alot together, Plan #1 is what I think is best here. I cannot see a strong argument for any other play here unless we had more knowledge on our opponent.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
waffle i was going to suggest a flop cap and turn bet/fold but whatev. i do do that sometimes fwiw. the river is tough if he calls your turn bet - you should probably be check folding but by then you have made the pot fairly big

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I think if we had a strong read that this guy would only 3bet the flop with a hand that wants a free card and would just call the flop checkraise and raise the turn with his made hands, then I would like cap leading since our holding is now very strong. However against most player's 3betting range here, even assuming that they 3bet here with just a FD or overs on occasion our hand is not worth the extra investment of cap leading IMO.

[That Fish]

I don't know If I like the flop raise with a FD on board with a fish and a light 3bet guy in the hand. If we assume something like 14 outs between them (FD + overs) they improve by the river 51% of the time while hero only contributes 1/3 of the money.
In other words, it might be more +EV to keep the fish in the hand than the equity gained by folding out BD draws or overs.
I just don't like the idea of getting all aggro with a weak made hand OOP against someone you can't fold against that will continue to bet when checked to with worse hands always.

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know If I like the flop raise with a FD on board with a fish and a light 3bet guy in the hand. If we assume something like 14 outs between them (FD + overs) they improve by the river 51% of the time while hero only contributes 1/3 of the money.
In other words, it might be more +EV to keep the fish in the hand than the equity gained by folding out BD draws or overs.
I just don't like the idea of getting all aggro with a weak made hand OOP against someone you can't fold against that will continue to bet when checked to with worse hands always.

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But here you are thinking only about the bets that go into the pot after the flop. The pot already contains a number of bets that are worth fighting for.