JJ vs unknown

[shuinthehouse]

Makes me very nervous when I disagree with 2 people I have huge respect for, Wook and Kit. So I'm hoping someone can tell me where I'm wrong. At the turn we are getting ~8-1 immediate, but really ~9-2 since we are committing to call the river. To my experience at .5/1 pokerstars an unknown villain check-raise-capping the flop has a set almost always. With a different board 2 pair might be possible, but it's highly unlikely here. IMO we have the odds to call the cap, but have to fold the turn.

[kerowo]

Your almost always sample size is low. There are agro monkeys who will assume you are playing overs and will do this with any part of the board, any under pp, any flush draw, any straight draw assuming you will fold your UI overs. Calling down heads up with an over pair against an unknown on a blank board is dirt standard.

[bravos1]

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Elaborate please

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Well, I'm not the one in question, but how can this be wa/wb if there's now way we're way ahead ?

I'm wondering if turn-folding is any good after villain c/r and capped the flop.

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I'm gonna assume that you mean "no way we're" instead of "now way.."
You've never seen someone go crazy w/ a flush draw? Something like a FD and a pair.. A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

What about A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? Never seen that?

What about if he flopped 2 pair w/ say 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. How many outs do we have on the turn if he has 94?

Granted, we are behind a bunch and this is why we call down after the flop, but folding is bad IMO.

[Victormm_BR]

I make the same...

[jstill]

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I apologize if I'm posting pretty lame hands, but I just really really suck at this game :-)

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this isnt lame at all... no matter what line u take 3bet the flop or raise the turn you are probably committed to showing down.... if u know a player perhaps you could raise the turn and fold to a 3bet but its uncomfortable even then... if u 3bet the flop u have to calldown a cap most likely, many players cap weak TPs (me) vs some players flop 3bets as they take it as generally weakness and plenty of players cap lead big draws due to equity and fold equity. Whether we could fold if the flush hits on the turn with no redraw if he caps the flop is tough.. I probably wouldnt but im sure its close?

jbas philosophy on this is to take the line you can feel the best calling down vs further aggression against so he likes to 3bet the flop...

Id prefer to think of it as which line nets the most money but thats hard to break down without knowing how often your ahead vs his flop cr'ing range, how often he calls down further aggression vs each line ect ect to quantify the EV of each line so maybe its best to find a simplier way to look at it that will often correlate to the EV of each line (as jba does).

The other question obviously is whether we should put in another raise somewhere or not... For everyone who says this hand is standard what hands would u just called down? TT A9 T9? wheres the cut off for you?

Ive written a few posts where I go against the trend and opt to pass up a thinnish raise to avoid getting punished when behind and losing air hands from his range they might cr with (or when they make a good fold with some made hand theyd put in more bets when u just call).

here vs an unknown I think youre good to put in another raise and I like it better on the flop (becuz worse made hands will fold to the turn raise often)... but its got to be close or debatable... for example an 8 hi coordinated flop I may not 3bet the flop or raise the turn with 99. tough to say I ll try to dig up some threads that relate to these kind of issues if I can find them.

[F. McSimmons]

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I apologize if I'm posting pretty lame hands, but I just really really suck at this game :-)

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this isnt lame at all... no matter what line u take 3bet the flop or raise the turn you are probably committed to showing down.... if u know a player perhaps you could raise the turn and fold to a 3bet but its uncomfortable even then... if u 3bet the flop u have to calldown a cap most likely, many players cap weak TPs (me) vs some players flop 3bets as they take it as generally weakness and plenty of players cap lead big draws due to equity and fold equity. Whether we could fold if the flush hits on the turn with no redraw if he caps the flop is tough.. I probably wouldnt but im sure its close?

jbas philosophy on this is to take the line you can feel the best calling down vs further aggression against so he likes to 3bet the flop...

Id prefer to think of it as which line nets the most money but thats hard to break down without knowing how often your ahead vs his flop cr'ing range, how often he calls down further aggression vs each line ect ect to quantify the EV of each line so maybe its best to find a simplier way to look at it that will often correlate to the EV of each line (as jba does).

The other question obviously is whether we should put in another raise somewhere or not... For everyone who says this hand is standard what hands would u just called down? TT A9 T9? wheres the cut off for you?

Ive written a few posts where I go against the trend and opt to pass up a thinnish raise to avoid getting punished when behind and losing air hands from his range they might cr with (or when they make a good fold with some made hand theyd put in more bets when u just call).

here vs an unknown I think youre good to put in another raise and I like it better on the flop (becuz worse made hands will fold to the turn raise often)... but its got to be close or debatable... for example an 8 hi coordinated flop I may not 3bet the flop or raise the turn with 99. tough to say I ll try to dig up some threads that relate to these kind of issues if I can find them.

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Very interesting read, thanks for posting this.