Psychology of losing even when your "ahead".

[Boondai]

The two outer on the river.
The runner-runner flushes and straights.

We all know it stings a little to see these hands play out against you, but what does it mean when it happens so frequently in a short period of time that you just become numb? Is this true tilt? Feeling like im not in my own body and just watching what happens from a distance.

I was playing a NL game that my roll didn't dictate that I buy into, which is not the issue for me. I was very +EV on the hands that I went broke on. I know it was poor Bankroll management to sit down. The money isn't the issue though. My life wasn't riding on these hands. I only lost my meager $400 roll. I've lost money in similar situations in the past but it was in the past when I knew nothing about playing the game.

I'm curious as to why losing even when I knew I was ahead hits me so hard. I wanted to write this down while I was still experiencing it. I'm not going to play cards for a very very long because I really can't stand this feeling.

If anyone has anything at all to say im very interested in hearing it.

[soh538]

I completely understand where you are coming from, recently played a few tournies and cash games and felt the same way. It seems that everytime i play a tournament i go out with a good hand or the best hand, you tend to become numb. The last outing was the worse, as i was completely card dead, and poker didn't feel good anymore. So i have decided to take a break from live play, just to refocus, and get the feeling of bad losses out of my head. I have even cut back on online play , which has been hurting my live play. Call it a detox if you will, but i think i break is much needed to refresh myself.

[Mllndllrmn]

Break. Doesnt matter how long, just take a break. I've had hands like that, where I just feel sick. Like, "how can you make that call?" In HS, I lost $140 (alot for a HS kid w/o a job) on one hand when I called in all-in bet with wired aces. He had flopped second pair with an ace. the 3rd 6 came on the turn. I din't play for awhile, got my head back in it and played when it would be fun again. Just take a break and you'll be fine.

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
The two outer on the river.
The runner-runner flushes and straights.

We all know it stings a little to see these hands play out against you, but what does it mean when it happens so frequently in a short period of time that you just become numb? Is this true tilt? Feeling like im not in my own body and just watching what happens from a distance.

I was playing a NL game that my roll didn't dictate that I buy into, which is not the issue for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you think this would have felt if you had 500 buy-ins for this game? How can it not be about bankroll?

[Albert Moulton]

You already answered you're own question. You hate it because you can't afford to keep playing when you lose. You need a much bigger bankroll to play a 400 max NL game than 400 or even 800 dollars. I play games with 200 max buy-in NL live, and I keep about $2800 in an envelope marked "poker roll" hidden in my house for playing only. That's about 14 buyins, so I don't have any problem rebuying 2 or even 3 times in a row if I have to.

You just shouldn't play short rolled in a no limit game.

[Wardfish]

I dont think, like some previous respondents, that this is purely a bankroll management issue.

I have just had a similar 7-hour stretch where I have lost 7 buy-ins. I have over 40 buy-ins remaining, but I have been annoyed by it. I have tried looking at my results in graph format, and this has helped me realise that these things happen, but it is difficult.

We have all had similar bad runs in the past, and similar great runs. I think the problem is we start to think that when things are going well we have mastered the game: that we are playing in a low-variance way and that we will steadily win on a consistent basis.

Obviously its not like that, BUT WE FORGET.

I think back to a quote from Ben Roberts (top cash game player):
"We must concentrate on the decisions we make in the game. There are wins and there are losses and at the end of the year you add them all up and if you have made good decisions the wins should be more than the losses."

[jjpokertime]

Be proud of yourself at least your not putting your money in needing to catch up and hit dream cards.

Are you a trappy passive type of player giving free cards. The no limit game I play in locally players try to trap me and give me free cards or let me in cheap with their pocket aces and my suited connectors bust them.

Or if you play easily dominated hands you will often get outdrawn. In High stakes poker on game show network Negranae kept flopping straights and losing on the river or turn, but he was playing junk and his oppents easily outdrew him. The nuts on the flop is not the same as the nuts on the river. If you play top hands the hands you make will not get easily outdrawn.

Try moving down in stakes if you bought in for example $50 a night in a small stakes game you could buy in 8 times and play a lot more hands, and the statistics would start to level out.

Remember its poker even when you are a huge favorite your opponent has some outs, why else would they put their money in. But you do have to gamble to win.

Your bankroll is to small if your upset about losing $400, you probably have leaks in your game such as fear of flopping, symptom: all in preflop. Not protecting your hand, syptom: Not raising and calling or giving cards out cheaply. Try reading Harrington's third book with a grey cover it is a workbook and will analyze your play and help you seal leaks in your game.

When you finish a session ask yourself did I play well, if a guy sucks out I think it's great, how else could I win consistantly if people didn't put their money in with crap.

Last week a guy in a tournment went all in and got a gut shot on the river hitting a four outer, He laughed and bragged how I would be going home crying, I laughed and said nope that's why I'm here. When players suck out I don't usually say anything negative but act happy for them and congratulate them. I wouldn't recommend you tell other players "that's why I'm here" or they may start to play better.

[BradleyT]

I've had the same thing happen over my last 800 SnGs. When I get to the bubble or in the money, I EXPECT to lose when I have the dominating hand like AK vs. A7.

It's happened such an extraordinary amount of times during this stretch that my brain just expects a loss.

For me it's not about bankroll one bit as I'm over-rolled for my level of SnGs and I have still maintained a slightly positive ROI over my past 800 games.

It's really sad.

[PantsOnFire]

I feel for you and think most people who have played more than a year or two can relate.

I would say though that tilt can come in many forms. And most people only see their own tilt if it is obvious (like you feel like throwing your computer though the window). For example, if you are thinking about a past hand (other than for player reading purposes) that you lost, you are tilting because you cannot make the decision in front of you to the best of your ability. I know that one problem I have almost corrected is playing in a session and looking over my past cards and saying things like "Geez, I haven't had an ace or pocket pair for thirty hands, what's going on here?" While doing this, I would find marginal hands started looking like big slick. And on top of that, when I did get big slick, I figured the pot was rightfully mine whatever was flopped. I still haven't gotten over that but it's a subtle form of tilt that I am currently trying to improve upon.

When you are in a game and faced with a poker decision, you need to have a clear and sharp mind. The only things in the past you should be thinking about are how your opponent has played in the past and how he has seen you play this situation in the past. You need to get past "results" out of your brain since they have no bearing on the decision at hand.

Another thing to keep in mind is the situation of going against more than one opponent. If you have TPTK against two opponents who have a flush draw and a straight draw you are ahead. But even though you are ahead, you are not going to win the pot 50% of the time. So combined with some form of subtle tilt, when you lose these hands (which will be more often than not), you tend to think the poker gods are against you. Play against 3 or more opponents and it becomes even worse. The good news is you will win less pots but the pots will be larger.

I don't mean to come down on you and I really probably wrote this post more for myself than you, but those are my current thoughts on the questions you raised.

[JussiUt]

[ QUOTE ]
Concentrate on the decisions we make in the game. There are wins and there are losses and at the end of the year you add them all up and if you have made good decisions the wins should be more than the losses."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, should, but not necessarily. Right now it feels like I'm on an everlasting downswing...