QQ preflop: a more theoretical look

[Erudito]

[ QUOTE ]
My last 2 sessions at .5/1 6max with 100bb stacks I've raised with QQ, got pot sized 3 bet, I 4 bet to ~35, and am met with a shove. In both cases I ended up calling and shown AA, KK. So I've done some EV calculations, and if I assume that villain only 5bet shoves 100% with AA, KK, AK and folds everything else, calling is -20/hand, versus the -35/hand if I fold.

If villain shoves 100% AA, KK, and 50% AK now its -32 vs -35/hand. So it seems like given that I've 4 bet and face a shove, it sucks, but I should go with it, since in reality we cannot completely discount lower pairs, AQ whatever.

So it appears the defining moment in the hand is the 4-bet vs smooth call preflop. One more hypothetical scenario: villain only 3 bets AA, KK, AK 100%, always c-bets 20 into 24/calls with AA, KK, and only calls with AK, if he hits. If we call and jam any non A, K flop, fold otherwise this roughly works out to -18/hand.

So do we 4 bet or call? In todays games I'd imagine QQ is in general well ahead of people 3 betting range, so I'm still leaning towards 4 betting to push our preflop equity. Another downside to calling is if an A or K does peel and we fold to the c-bet alot of times we are folding the best hand. For those of you who smoothcall here a good amount, is it for deception value (Orange posted a QQ hand recently where he just called a button reraise pre that got many of responses) Is alot of your decision based on if you raised UTG and got 3bet by UTG + 1 vs your button open and the blinds come over the top?

Thoughts/your own experience appreciated

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Dude, I would like to know how do you turn a NEGATIVE EV into a positive EV? In all the examples above your EV is negative. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[As armas]

No its a choice between -EV (calling the 5 bet) and even more -EV (folding to the 5bet) after already putting in 35.
I'll take the less -EV option...

[Erudito]

[ QUOTE ]
No its a choice between -EV (calling the 5 bet) and even more -EV (folding to the 5bet) after already putting in 35.
I'll take the less -EV option...

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, your choice leads to a Negative EV whether you choose the lesser negative EV. If you were playing this situation 100 times, how do you expect to come out ahead?
This is how casinos make their money, they all offer negative EV to players who are willing to take a shot into making a positive EV. I don't see any casinos folding or closing their doors.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

At these stakes, I think the vast majority of the time when there is a 4-bet pre-flop, you are going to wind up getting all in. So I think it makes more sense, instead of asking "should I 4-bet here" you should ask "Do I want to get all-in here?"

The answer to this will depend on your opponent.

But I think it is helpful to realize that if you 4-bet, you are going to face a shove.

[As armas]

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At these stakes, I think the vast majority of the time when there is a 4-bet pre-flop, you are going to wind up getting all in. So I think it makes more sense, instead of asking "should I 4-bet here" you should ask "Do I want to get all-in here?"

The answer to this will depend on your opponent.

But I think it is helpful to realize that if you 4-bet, you are going to face a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats interesting. I've found that a good majority of the time the 3 bets are out of line and cant stand the pressure of a 4 bet, ie all the medium pairs, higher suited connectors, even air if villain is all about using position, playing the player. I thinks its good for your image too to show that one cannot 3 bet you at will. After all getting 3 bet a decent amount is just difficult to play profitably against.

[As armas]

[ QUOTE ]
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No its a choice between -EV (calling the 5 bet) and even more -EV (folding to the 5bet) after already putting in 35.
I'll take the less -EV option...

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, your choice leads to a Negative EV whether you choose the lesser negative EV. If you were playing this situation 100 times, how do you expect to come out ahead?
This is how casinos make their money, they all offer negative EV to players who are willing to take a shot into making a positive EV. I don't see any casinos folding or closing their doors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because when we 4 bet with QQ we face 2 -EV decisions when we get 5 bet AI does not mean that 4 betting with QQ
is always a -EV play. We dont always get 5 bet, and the frequency of 3 bets pre nowadays are I think high enough that QQ is usually well ahead.

The whole point of the post is whether going the 4 bet route or smooth calling is the best line to take. I think its actually quite complicated, defenitely situational, and worth thinking about.

[pepper123]

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No its a choice between -EV (calling the 5 bet) and even more -EV (folding to the 5bet) after already putting in 35.
I'll take the less -EV option...

[/ QUOTE ]

folding is always 0ev