NL: Why the hate on short buy-ins?

[ICE TREY]

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I got the feeling that some of the players at the online tables either didn't like or didn't respect me for buying in short. (I assume here you have read the short stack discussion in Miller/Sklansky NLHE.)

The respet problem usually ends the first time I go AI. I can understand why they might be irritated. For a good tall stack player trying to max his BB/hr rate, a short stack buy-in must look like a half empty seat at a full table. It also puts a crimp in their implied odds strategy.

It is a perfectly legal strategy and part of the game. Objecting to it is like makeing a "No ckeck and raise" rule, it diminishes the complexity of the game.

Use it or don't use it, whichever is best for you.

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Short stackers are scum.

I am more of amateur player than a pro, so when I play poker its mostly for fun. But when I play NL, I want to play all three streets, and short-stacking douche bags take that away from the game.

Here's a clue for you, if you aren't buying in full, it's because you suck. Just take $40 bucks to a $50 game and learn to play poker instead of trying to ruin the game for every one.

Here's something else to think about, every live place I have every played, does not allow you to buy-in for less than 60BB's, so all you are doing is preventing yourself from developing as a player.

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everything about this post is so off its rediculous. I play deep stacked live poker so i'm not a shortstacker but I think calling them scum is a little overboard. Also 10/20nl uncapped at commerce has a 30bbmin buy in. lol most low level live games have a 40bb CAP! (in la) You have no clue as to what scum is in poker and you will meet some serious scum some day if you keep playing.

[questions]

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in the long run, it is profitable to buy in short if you play it right. wait for premium hands, push all in pre flop and you will almost always get called by some rag hand from a large stack. as long as they keep calling with rags, i will keep buying in short.

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Exactly. Happens all the time that way. They fail to adapt to a short stack's strategy, which is to play only premium hands. They can't use their deep stacks to bludgeon people out of the game. Different strategy. Just the way it goes.

[Nsight7]

Further, all of you whining and moaning about how it ruins the game and negates your skill on later streets, please lose the ego. It doesn't negate your skill in the game, it means that you have to adjust to each different player. It "expands" your skill set. Just another aspect of the game.

As a matter of fact, on tougher sites, I am more inclined to sometimes short-stack, sometimes medium stack, and sometimes large stack. It allows me to keep my opponents off-balance somewhat.

[HSB]

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in the long run, it is profitable to buy in short if you play it right. wait for premium hands, push all in pre flop and you will almost always get called by some rag hand from a large stack. as long as they keep calling with rags, i will keep buying in short.

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Exactly. Happens all the time that way. They fail to adapt to a short stack's strategy, which is to play only premium hands. They can't use their deep stacks to bludgeon people out of the game. Different strategy. Just the way it goes.

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You're assuming shortstackers know what they're doing which is an unwarranted assumption.

Don't mock the real players for calling with less than stellar hands until you mock the shortstackers for open pushing with A7o and pocket deuces.

[Dire]

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in the long run, it is profitable to buy in short if you play it right. wait for premium hands, push all in pre flop and you will almost always get called by some rag hand from a large stack. as long as they keep calling with rags, i will keep buying in short.

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Exactly. Happens all the time that way. They fail to adapt to a short stack's strategy, which is to play only premium hands. They can't use their deep stacks to bludgeon people out of the game. Different strategy. Just the way it goes.

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...lol @ 'adjusting' to short stack 'strategy' (lol @ calling it 'strategy'). If you get it all in preflop against a 20BB short stack with two live cards you're never going to be too much worse than a 60/40. That has a total expectation of -4BB against a 20BB stack. Less than the cost of a failed blind steal. If the short stack is only playing like JJ-AA then it's easy to fold any time he even glances at his chips unless you also have a huge hand.

Short stacks do nothing but dumb down the game.

[JLaw]

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The same situation exists live -- you get up and find another table if you want to continue to play short after a big hit. THe only difference is that instead of seconds to find another table it might take a few minutes.


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You have no concept of live play, do you?

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Why do you say that?

When I've made the choice that I'm going to play short, I've had absolutely no trouble what so ever getting up after a good hit taking a short break, then getting into another game either at the same casino or one nearby. Granted I'm not playing high limits, so I have good selection in Vegas and even a little town like Wendover.

For various reasons I won't enumerate, I actually prefer to short-stack live rather than on the net.

Jeff

[morphball]

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Thought it was pretty common to have 1/2 $100 MAX NL in LV. Assume the min buy-in is even less than that.

In Tunica they have no caps on the buy-ins.
The minimum buy-in at 2/5 NL is either $100 or $200 depending on the room.
And a lot of the $100 buy-in players are just 'free money'. They hardly ruin the game. But they do keep it going imo.


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In AC, its 60BB's for the tables I have played, don't know how they do it elsewhere, my bad for assuming it's standard.

[morphball]

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everything about this post is so off its rediculous. I play deep stacked live poker so i'm not a shortstacker but I think calling them scum is a little overboard. Also 10/20nl uncapped at commerce has a 30bbmin buy in. lol most low level live games have a 40bb CAP! (in la) You have no clue as to what scum is in poker and you will meet some serious scum some day if you keep playing.

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See above post re: buy-ins, only played NL in AC at three casino's. I am glad you are not a short stacker. They destroy the games and cause them to break too fast.

They are scum, but I agree that there are worse ones out there who are even more loathsome.

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You're assuming shortstackers know what they're doing which is an unwarranted assumption.

Don't mock the real players for calling with less than stellar hands until you mock the shortstackers for open pushing with A7o and pocket deuces.

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I don't make that assumption. I'm saying that those who are assuming that they DON'T know what they are doing are incorrect, though if that approach works for you, fine with me.

Phil Gordon addresses this debate in his Green Book, and cautions readers that they need to be aware that short stacks will often take big risks with shorter stacks. Sklansky also talks about it. I think just about every poker book I've read addresses the reality that short stacks take bigger risks with worse hands, and that deep stacks should not try bluffing them off their hands, but engage them with premium hands.

And also, I think Gordon writes about the folly of playing poker to show to others how skillful you are rather than playing for MONEY. But hey, what does a bestselling, succesful poker author know. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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I recently witnessed a game where a guy bought in for a quarter of the max buy-in, and left an hour later with 8x the max buy-in, not making that up.