NL: Why the hate on short buy-ins?

[jds1201]

[ QUOTE ]
there was a pretty good discussion about short-stackers in the ElDiablo forum recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know the secret handshake

[MicroBob]

no secret handshake necessary.
you have to be selected in order to START threads.
But anyone is free to respond and participate in the current discussions taking place.

[Dennisa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The same situation exists live -- you get up and find another table if you want to continue to play short after a big hit. THe only difference is that instead of seconds to find another table it might take a few minutes.


[/ QUOTE ]
You have no concept of live play, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on where you play. In a LV room, where 1 or 2 games are going, very tough. In Los Angeles it encouraged to rathole as any table change you can only buy in with the max buy in at the table. Plus most of the large casinos have 4-10 games going on at a particular level.

[ICE TREY]

I'm gonna start shortstacking (40bb) the 5/10 and up games. With an extremely TAG preflop strat. Screw the haters!

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
Short buy-in strategy is the optimal approach for playing online, IMHO. The reason is that all online NLHE or PLO games have a MAX buy-in of 100BB, regardless of the blind structure--even a 10/20 blind game has a maximum buy-in of $2000. Take a look at the same game structure, played live at the Bellagio, or any other poker room--the minimum buy-in is something like $800 or $1000, with no max. I typically sit in those games with around $4000, and am prepared to reload if necessary--and I'm usually far from being the smallest stack. Playing these kinds of stack sizes rewards skillful play on all streets.

For me personally, I find that online NL, capped at 100 BB's, has the effect of hampering my play--it is often difficult to structure my bets in such a way that I can maximize value, or put an opponent to the test with that huge uber-bet on the river, since too much of my (or my opponent's) money has gone in on prior rounds.

I have constantly whined at all the online sites, asking for at least some NL games with no-max buy-ins...to no avail. So I too have become a short buy-in, hit and run artist. It's not my preferred style of play, by any means. I'm just responding to the game conditions as they are.

I would be thrilled to find an online site that was willing to spread a NLHE with both a higher minimum buy-in and a "no max buy-in" policy..but it just isn't out there, sadly. The guiding principle appears to be "we need to have a max buy-in to protect the game". I don't agree with this philosophy, although I can understand why it might be in use at lower limits. Once you get to 5/10 and higher though, I see no reason NOT to allow players to buy in for as much as they want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steel,

Take a look at my California online poker initiative (link in the legislative forum). If you can get past the hate about no HUD and no multitabling, you might see something you like there. Look midway through it in the section detailing games to be offered.

There is an anti ratholing provision too.

Tuff
.

[El Diablo]

All,

Fanboys and haters alike are welcomed in the EDF.

A number of old-school NL players participate there, so perspectives are probably a little different than those of the majority of 2+2ers.

[questions]

The haters are also those who try to push out the short stacks by responding to a raise from them with an all-in/GTFO, only to be surprised when their A-2 offsuit fails to stand up to short stack's AK. LOL

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
I got the feeling that some of the players at the online tables either didn't like or didn't respect me for buying in short. (I assume here you have read the short stack discussion in Miller/Sklansky NLHE.)

The respet problem usually ends the first time I go AI. I can understand why they might be irritated. For a good tall stack player trying to max his BB/hr rate, a short stack buy-in must look like a half empty seat at a full table. It also puts a crimp in their implied odds strategy.

It is a perfectly legal strategy and part of the game. Objecting to it is like makeing a "No ckeck and raise" rule, it diminishes the complexity of the game.

Use it or don't use it, whichever is best for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Short stackers are scum.

I am more of amateur player than a pro, so when I play poker its mostly for fun. But when I play NL, I want to play all three streets, and short-stacking douche bags take that away from the game.

Here's a clue for you, if you aren't buying in full, it's because you suck. Just take $40 bucks to a $50 game and learn to play poker instead of trying to ruin the game for every one.

Here's something else to think about, every live place I have every played, does not allow you to buy-in for less than 60BB's, so all you are doing is preventing yourself from developing as a player.

[monkeyman]

in the long run, it is profitable to buy in short if you play it right. wait for premium hands, push all in pre flop and you will almost always get called by some rag hand from a large stack. as long as they keep calling with rags, i will keep buying in short.

[MicroBob]

Huh?
Live places usually have a minimum that's less than 60BB's don't they?

Thought it was pretty common to have 1/2 $100 MAX NL in LV. Assume the min buy-in is even less than that.

In Tunica they have no caps on the buy-ins.
The minimum buy-in at 2/5 NL is either $100 or $200 depending on the room.
And a lot of the $100 buy-in players are just 'free money'. They hardly ruin the game. But they do keep it going imo.


FWIW - I don't know NL too well. Still learning.
So I buy-in short (live or online) if that's what I'm comfortable with. It's not against the rules and I don't feel like it's all the same as rat-holing which I am against and don't do.

If you think I'm scum because I buy-in short to an NL game then so be it I suppose.
But some of you may want to think twice about calling my all-in with your A2 as was mentioned in a previous thread.

Seems there's some serious meta-game advantages to buying-in short also. Short-stackers get zero respect for having any ability at all....so some make plays far more terrible than they would make playing super-careful against a bigger stack.