BVB vs tough player

[NinaWilliams]

Villain is 29/22/2.9 and plays pretty well post flop.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3BB, 2 players)
Hero

[Absolution]

Well, I'm not folding a pair, but I'm not sure what line is best to get us to showdown.

[sethypooh21]

If I check here, it's with the intention of raising.

C/R is terrible.

So I'm betting, and folding never.

[Oink]

Its not like there is a million worse hands calling

On the other hand he is prolly not betting a million worse hands for you either.

C/f is out of the question so.

I dunno really and I would love to hear what other players do here.

EDIT: On a more general note: If you start 2nd barreling your whole range here, that is start bet/folding quite a lot, you might induce some bluff raises which is valuable for hands like Kx and Ax

[Gurravasa]

bet and call if raised, I would never fold this against an agressive player in BvB.

[vmacosta]

actually im not so sure why everybody insists on showing down if raised here. This is not a good spot to two-barrel bluff, so our range is stacked with Ax and Kx when we bet the turn. Therefore, I imagine villain would be very unlikely to stick in 3 bets on a bluff and its very rare that worse K's or micropairs raise the turn and vb the river.

So at least in theory i think you should bet/call, c/f sometimes and c/c, c/c sometimes.

[Oink]

I thought about this in the shower and I would like to change my answer to:

check!


1) If he has K8 or better c &gt; bet/call. LDO

2) If he has a made hand worse than ours I believe he is gonna bet almost always -&gt; c ~ b.

3) If he peeled with a broadway gut checking is prolly not that bad

3a) He calls a turn bet. Then b &gt; c.

3b) He folds a turn bet. Then 3 things can happen

- River is a brick. In this case we might induce a river bluff. Or he might look us up with QJ if we bet.
- River gives him a pair. In this spot we get a bet out of checking the turn.
- River gives him a straight. Now we loose the pot and 1 or 2 bets on the river depending on our action.

Overal in scenario 3) betting is prolly slightly better than checking. But not by as much as checking beat betting in 1 and 4.


4). Finally. He might float us with air like 87s or J8 thinking that since we can read hands we might give up a lot on the turn "because he must have something when he peels that flop".

Against this range checking is better than betting if he is gonna bet when checked to and fold if bet to.



OK. Long post. But I think this is a check guys.

[sharpie]

I agree with Oink mostly, there aren't many worse hands than Kx that can calldown, basically 3x and pocket pairs. We might miss value from worse Kx, but they might valuebet both streets anyway. I also think checking against a gutshot is best if he'd fold to our bet, 4 outs are worth less than 1/3 of a BB in this size pot, and he also has 6 "fake" outs. I wonder what the cutoff is here, what is the worst Kx hand we can bet/call down?

[Gurravasa]

If we c/c turn I'm not comfortable calling a bet on river, what worse hands would he bet on river when we call turn?

Edit: is c/c turn and b/f river an option or would that induce river bluffraises to often?

[vmacosta]

good posts, oink and sharpie, but one thing we should all make clear is that bway gutshots make up a tiny portion of villain's range (he should be 3-betting them pf the vast majority of the time).