United Airlines FTL

[amead]

I'd be curious where you got your information that suggests that airlines have decided to staff and schedule as if they will never, ever have any delays or problems, and that they do not have contingency plans in place for weather delays, mechanical failures, etc.

This statement suggests a fundamental lack of understanding of the air travel industry.

And JetBlue did screw up quite a bit in the handling of the JFK debacle, but I'd suggest that the animosity and ill-will felt by the passengers was not completely unrelated to the fact that this occured in New York City (and I live in NYC).

[tuq]

[ QUOTE ]
The point both of you are missing is that the airlines have decided to staff and schedule as if they will never, ever have any delays or problems. When those problems inevitably and all too frequently occur the result is a shambles. Is it too much to ask for some contingency planning?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's super weird for some of you to think that there's just planes and crews hanging out at airports, just waiting to be deployed on an as-needed basis. No.

Anyway, I was treated to a 4-5 hour delay last week, it was because the plane that flew us was grounded in Milwaukee for several hours earlier in the day due to weather. It happens. I was happy and maybe lucky that they decided to fly well into the night to complete the flights though rather than just cancel them.

[OrigamiSensei]

The general nature of the statement was somewhat of an exaggeration intended for effect. Of course they have some plans in place but what is there seems to be completely inadequate. The evidence is growing across all airlines that they are cutting their staffing to the bone and scheduling more and more tightly, and this lack of flexibility is making them far more vulnerable to schedule disruptions. I may be an idiot that knows nothing about the air travel industry, but this idiot has averaged something approaching 100,000 air miles per year for the past twelve years. Also my wife's uncle was a senior pilot for United up through around 2003 and I have talked with him to some extent about the industry and how it works. I personally have seen these issues occurring with American and United as my primary carriers but we have evidence in this thread that the same thing is happening to Continental and Jet Blue of course had a notorious situation.

Tuq, I never suggested that airlines should have a bunch of spare planes lying around. Mechanical failures are inherently unplannable and spare planes are very expensive. However, when airlines don't have crews available that means their very expensive planes are not flying and therefore costing money without bringing in revenue.

I also never suggested that the airlines should have spare crews waiting around at the airport. However, when we're talking about huge hubs like Dallas and Chicago is it too much to ask that the airline should recognize that ATC or weather problems will cause crews to time out? If weather forecasting and current data indicates that crews will time out and flights will start getting canceled it's not unreasonable to expect that the phone lines should start burning in an attempt to get off-duty crews into work. See one of my previous posts about waiting an hour beyond scheduled departure time so American could get a member of their flight crew on board for an example of problems even when weather and ATC weren't involved.

This all leads to one key piece of evidence I DO have that airlines are staffing and scheduling in the manner I alleged. On my last trip I overheard a conversation between two flight attendants. To summarize what I heard and believe I understood, one of the flight attendants had timed out a few times during the month and would have had to exceed the number of hours allowed by the FAA to complete her bidded trips. Ordinarily this wouldn't be a big deal but the crux of the conversation was that the airline had cut their flight attendant staffing to such a degree that the airline would have difficulty finding crew to take over for any trips she could not complete. Also, I believe that there are ranges of hours that flight attendants are required to fly to meet their full time status and the airlines are consistently pushing the upper ends of those ranges and limits on a scheduled basis instead of letting some pre-calculated average number of delays soak up those hours. The flight attendants were complaining in general regarding how much flight crew staffing had been cut and that the staff cuts were causing disruptions. It seems like pretty compelling evidence to me.

I also see indications in other areas. I was on a recent flight where the gate staff had been cut to one person. Thus the gate agent could take tickets and board people or assist someone at the counter but not at the same time. Although that is one incident I hope it's not a harbinger of things to come across the board.

Perhaps you think I'm whining about things I don't understand but I can tell you that within the last 24 months there is a large qualitative degradation across the board in terms of airline service and efficiency. I believe it's going to get worse before it get better.

[PilotMatt]

[ QUOTE ]
I also never suggested that the airlines should have spare crews waiting around at the airport.
On my last trip I overheard a conversation between two flight attendants. To summarize what I heard and believe I understood, one of the flight attendants had timed out a few times during the month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most airlines do have pilots and FA's on "ready reserve" or aiport standby. But usually when one flight cancels from ATC or weather, many more will also cancel, thus using all the reserve crews available.

Pilots (and most FA's) are allowed to fly 8 hours in a day, 30 hours in any 7 days, and 100 hours a month. This is actual flight time, not time spent at work.

As an example, we were late getting into Detroit last night after a 15 hour day, only to get 6 hours in our hotel room before we had to fly out this morning at 5am. We are required 8 hours of rest everynight, but that doesn't include time to get from the plane to the hotel and back in the am.

[manbearpig]

And you know, paying somebody to sit on their ass in case of a delay, while not great for customer service, is probably a positive for airlines since the majority of them are operating either in, near in, or just out of bankruptcy.

Feel everyones pain though....I live in Atlanta, never a single flight on time. And no Southwest...

[NozeCandy]

My Mom was supposed to fly United out of New Orleans the day before Katrina hit. We left her in the city while we went to Houston because United said they would still be running flights at this time (her flight was at about 8 am, well before the storm was to hit the next day). She shows up at the airport, and the United desk is abandoned. There is literally not one United employee there. She had already returned her rental car. Every hotel was either booked or closed. Because of United she had to go back and pretty much steal her rental car back (since she had dropped it off a day early and could have still easily been hers, she didn't feel too bad)and drive all the way to Michigan by herself. Because of this my family is pretty much banned from flying United unless there are no other options.

[Dale Dough]

Re: no extra crew available:

My girlfriend used to work as a flight attendant. Sometimes she would have 'standby duty', where they just put a group of them in a hotel close to the airport for up to 24 hours. That happened pretty often actually, and most times she didn't end up flying. I imagine they do the same for pilots. This was a Russian airline btw; US standards are probably stricter.

[PilotMatt]

[ QUOTE ]
And you know, paying somebody to sit on their ass in case of a delay, while not great for customer service, is probably a positive for airlines since the majority of them are operating either in, near in, or just out of bankruptcy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The crews only get paid when the aircraft door is closed. Theoretically, you could work a 16 hour day and only get paid for 2 hours.

[NajdorfDefense]

Not every airline sux equally, UA, NW, and USair suck more.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most crew problems stem from earlier delayed or canceled flights, not because they never planned on having a crew there. Do you think they were planning on making money by having to slam their customer service and fill up every plane (other carriers and their own) at the last minute?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This holds true for delays caused by mandated crew rest periods as well. If they can't get a crew together, that's very likely the reason. Tired pilots are no gouda.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, delays cause problems in flight crew availability and crews often time out as a result of delays. No, we don't want bleary-eyed zombies piloting our aircraft. We get that. When flight delays occur because there's lightning in the vicinity and they don't want to endanger the ground crew I nod along and say "no problem, you do what you need to do".

The point both of you are missing is that the airlines have decided to staff and schedule as if they will never, ever have any delays or problems. When those problems inevitably and all too frequently occur the result is a shambles. Is it too much to ask for some contingency planning?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that's the case. Airlines love running into problems and the fantastic customer relations they get from it. They love giving out free flights and vouchers instead of scheduling a couple standby crews.

I'll agree that airlines aren't always rational firms, but this claim (with no supporting evidence) seems ridiculous on it's face.

-d