Jacks in a really tough spot.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm definitely up for being convinced on the 17/14 nit thing.
I think such a player's 3betting range in this situation is 99+, AJ+.


[/ QUOTE ]


In this situation? Where we open utg for 6xbb?

This seems like exactly the same range you would give this guy for raising your button steal when he is in bb.

[mdkrahn]

I definitely didn't factor in the 6xbb 3betting range here.

but I think a 17/14 is essentially playing raise/fold preflop, and I doubt he's folding 99's here.

[martijn]

erm, 17/14's reraise range on these limits generally are QQ/AK, maybe JJ.

just fold preflop and dont get in situations like this.

[_TKO_]

I think I'd call preflop, but when posting the hand, I'd cut it off at the preflop decision.

[Casper05]

[ QUOTE ]
If you misclicked a 6x UTG raise and a nit 3 bet you from the CO, you should be insta-mucking JJ IMO. I think you'd have to have some great post-flop reads on the guy to call profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this

My questions:
1) Will villain ever fold QQ if we push the flop?

2) This villain won't with our history, but without that, if he folds QQ isn't a push +EV (since he also folds AK)?

3) ...or is he rarely c-betting AK?

4) Who c-bets AK on a low flop with this action? I prob check/bet 50/50.

[BHold]

I often play at about 17/14. However, I can promise you I'd be very happy if everyone folded JJ to my 3bets. At 17/14 you can find players that do indeed only 3bet qq+/ak, or players that 3bet 77+, aj+, kq with regularity and the occasional SC. This hand really depends entirely on how this player has played thus far preflop. Whether you fold preflop or stick it in on the flop I think the EV is very very close.

[Redgrape]

[ QUOTE ]
with that range, 4bet >>> calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why so your mistake is even more amplified????

The second retarded post you made; the first was the one about how youll cbet AK 100% now. Yeah, that's because the other hands u could have there is AA-QQ.

[Austiger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you misclicked a 6x UTG raise and a nit 3 bet you from the CO, you should be insta-mucking JJ IMO. I think you'd have to have some great post-flop reads on the guy to call profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this

My questions:
1) Will villain ever fold QQ if we push the flop?

2) This villain won't with our history, but without that, if he folds QQ isn't a push +EV (since he also folds AK)?

3) ...or is he rarely c-betting AK?

4) Who c-bets AK on a low flop with this action? I prob check/bet 50/50.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a good portion of your profit is coming from getting a PF 3-banger to fold QQ on a rag flop, I think you know how that will turn out. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As for c-betting re-raised pots, I am guilty of doing it nearly 100% and it's a bad leak for me. In position though, I do think I would bet here.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm definitely up for being convinced on the 17/14 nit thing.
I think such a player's 3betting range in this situation is 99+, AJ+.
In which case, I think folding preflop is really bad right?

But I guess if you put his range as much tighter then that,
then obviously folding would be best.

[/ QUOTE ]

For comparison, i play > 25/20 and I'd say my 3betting range here is probably AQ+, JJ+. I probably flat call AQ a lot actually now that I think about it. But I suppose a lot of players would mindlessly 3 bet 99 because "it's a good hand!" I dunno, but I'm more aware of what I'm trying to accomplish when I make certain plays, and I can't think of any good reason to 3bet 99 vs an UTG raise from somebody solid, but that's just me. And I also flat call more in position than most players which makes me more comfortable in not reraising them.

[mdkrahn]

[ QUOTE ]

For comparison, i play > 25/20 and I'd say my 3betting range here is probably AQ+, JJ+. I probably flat call AQ a lot actually now that I think about it. But I suppose a lot of players would mindlessly 3 bet 99 because "it's a good hand!" I dunno, but I'm more aware of what I'm trying to accomplish when I make certain plays, and I can't think of any good reason to 3bet 99 vs an UTG raise from somebody solid, but that's just me. And I also flat call more in position than most players which makes me more comfortable in not reraising them.

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough.
and I do agree on coldcalling vs 3betting with a hand like 99's vs a standard villain opening UTG.
Maybe I'm just biasing my opinion on the times where I have seen bad 17/14 TAGS playing mindlessly, myself included sometimes.