Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Review

[Hey_Porter]

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I would just add that there is another reason to go to an elite law school if you get a chance: there is no guarantee that you will prove to be good at taking law school exams and getting good grades. Believe it or not, it is a very specific skill and often quite arbitrary. The whole "go to a lower tier school and get great grades" can work just fine, but it can backfire if it turns out you don't pick up quickly on the very delicate art of taking law school exams.

I know very smart people -- who were very accomplished before and after law school -- who could never do all that well on law school exams. I can happen to you almost no matter how smart you are -- it's a bit of a lottery.

Go to a great school, and even if you suck you are going to land just fine though. It's not a bad insurance policy.

It looks like things worked out just as planned for the OP, but it's worth considering the downside.

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Seconded. I had very little ambition regarding law school. I simply decided I wanted to go to one of three specific law schools, and didn't even try for anything higher. Other than a couple hours on practice problems, didn't study for the LSAT. I got a 165, and think I probably could have done better with some work. W/ that and a 3.75 GPA I could easily get into the schools I wanted to get into.

Anyway, even at the top of my class in a top 100 school things just simply weren't as easy as they could have been if I had gone to a higher ranked school. Maybe I would have ranked lower, but I doubt I would have ranked SIGNIFICANTLY lower. Luckily, I still have very little "ambition" for the things a higher ranked school would have helped me with (e.g., turned down a BigLaw job for a small firm job that paid quite a bit less; only applied for local clerkships), but if you have any ambition at all, you need to go as high as you can.

[Dave D]

Just to add, as someone who goes to a lower ranked school, I thought that I would go to a lower school and get better grades etc. That's just not true like it is for undergrad, I think in general the gradation of talent among law schools is really slight. The people in my classes, probably 75% of them are just as smart as the typical wake student in college. They're all people used to being the top of their class at whatever college they went to, even if it was a lower ranked school. Granted this school is kinda one of those "hidden jewel" types in that it has a really good reputation in Boston (the alumni don't leave the area so the local connection network it strong, it just sucks for outside of New England), but no one else has heard of it, but it's still not BU/Harvard etc.

Compared to my undergrad I expected this to be a significant step down, but it really wasn't at all. I'd say at least 1/3 of my class went to BC/Tufts for college, and sometimes I feel like I'm working harder for less reward (whereas if you go to BC it's easier to get jobs even tho the talent is the same or maybe only slightly better).

[DrewDevil]

Noah, congrats on the grades, but you are seriously deluding yourself if you think you are going to find a "quality of life biglaw firm."

The big firms compete with each other for candidates by telling them outright lies about the workload. The chairman of the recruiting committee at the law firm where I worked right out of law school looked me directly in the eye and lied right to my face about the billable hour requirements. I asked around and this is totally standard.

Beware, young one, beware. If you like the prestige and moneys, go for it, but seriously, knock out your student loans and then GTFO while you still have a soul.

[XXXNoahXXX]

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Noah, congrats on the grades, but you are seriously deluding yourself if you think you are going to find a "quality of life biglaw firm."

The big firms compete with each other for candidates by telling them outright lies about the workload. The chairman of the recruiting committee at the law firm where I worked right out of law school looked me directly in the eye and lied right to my face about the billable hour requirements. I asked around and this is totally standard.

Beware, young one, beware. If you like the prestige and moneys, go for it, but seriously, knock out your student loans and then GTFO while you still have a soul.

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I don't mean QOL the way that big firms do, just that I probably won't be going to one that takes pride in being a sweatshop (not that most would have me...Wachtell, Cravath, etc.)

I don't have as much debt as most, but I am definitely only looking for somewhere I can spend 2-4 years. If it works out, then great, but if not, I have no problem hitting the door for some better hours elsewhere.

I have a few friends who are honest to me about their hours at biglaw, so i know what i have coming.

[remi983]

Yo Noah, this is a noob question (I start 1L on 8/13 and am doing my HW now), but where can I find the case summaries which corespond w/ the casebooks? I discern that they're called textbooks, are they written by the casebook authors? published by the same company? I assume so, but I didn't see any textbooks at the bookstore where I got my required books. Any advice on where to find the summaries is much appreciated.

I've searched Barristers and a couple of other sites, but I can't find anything other than the generic hornbook, nutshells, etc. Are the textbooks generally found in law school libraries? I'm totally in the dark here. Please help!!!

[XXXNoahXXX]

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Yo Noah, this is a noob question (I start 1L on 8/13 and am doing my HW now), but where can I find the case summaries which corespond w/ the casebooks? I discern that they're called textbooks, are they written by the casebook authors? published by the same company? I assume so, but I didn't see any textbooks at the bookstore where I got my required books. Any advice on where to find the summaries is much appreciated.

I've searched Barristers and a couple of other sites, but I can't find anything other than the generic hornbook, nutshells, etc. Are the textbooks generally found in law school libraries? I'm totally in the dark here. Please help!!!

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Example:

Property by Dukeminier

Casenots Legal Briefs keyed to Dukeminier Property

High Court Case Summaries Keyed to Dukeminier Property

Emmanuel's Property- Dukeminier Edition


There are two types of secondary sources as well as various hybrids. The first is case summary and analysis called canned briefs, case briefs, summaries, etc. You should always get one "keyed" to the specific author and edition of your text, so that the cases in the brief book will go in the order the cases come in your textbook. I liked High Court Case Summaries.

Then there are things called hornbooks, which include references to cases, but are more an overall summary and analysis of the course. You can get these keyed to specific editions as well, often written by the same professor, and that helps, because the order and focus will be the same. Sometimes though, there are non-keyed ones that are just better. Have to do some googling research.

Then there are things like Examples and Explanations. Very good for test prep IMO. They teach you the stuff then give you questions and answers to test your newfound knowledge.

Any more questions, feel free to post.

[remi983]

Thnks for the info, it's very helpful indeed. I'm planning on overworking for the 1st couple weeks of class until I can get a feel for what's essential (ie need to know for the exam). Then, I'll prob do some semblance of the strategy you outlined on pg 1 of this thread...I origially signed up for 2+2 for sharpening my poker skills. Who woulda thunk I'd find law school strategy here?

Also, I read a quote from my Torts proff. On proximate/legal cause, he says using it to confuse law students is like, "hunting deer w/ a machine gun." WTF? Do you have any good stories a/b proff messing w/ students?

[XXXNoahXXX]

Bump for anyone with question on the whole OCI firm interviewing process.

Did tons of screening interviews, currently doing callbacks and getting offers.

[burkoboy]

Noah, I've been wanting to go to law school for a while. I'm in my 3rd year and I've finally gotten serious about it (hopefully I'm not too late)

I did my first 2 years at Ohio State, majoring in Finance. I had a 3.11 with pretty good extra extracurriculars (club baseball, office position in fraternity, teachers research assistant for an entrepreneurship class) but got burnt out partying and living with 11 people

I moved back home and am living with my parents in Cincinnati, going to University of Cincinnati. I am fully focused on doing everything possible to get into a top 10 law school.

I figure I have 2 years left at UC, and they "say" my GPA starts over.

So my question is, when I apply, do I use a merged GPA from both schools or JUST my UC gpa?

Another question, is there any weighing what major you are taking? I'm assuming an engineering degree is harder than business, and business is harder then say, political science. Do they weigh this at all when you apply?

When/how many times should you take the LSAT?

I was hoping to get through this year, and next summer start studying for the LSAT, take a class towards the end of summer, and then take the LSAT to start applying to schools next winter, is this the right way to go about things?

What's your take on taking time off? My parents think if I go work, making money will cause me not to go back to law school.

Last question is what else can I do NOW? as a 20 year old. My parents have some contact, I might be able to get a job with to get some experience, but again, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get in (if it matters I want to go to UCLA or USC).

[ebranig]

Burkobow:

Law schools will see your entire undergraduate GPA, from both schools. The good news is that many schools claim to notice improvement. That is, if you get a 4.0 during your next two years, your 3.55 avg GPA will look "better" than someone who got a 3.55 every year.

As for GPA weighing, engineering students generally get a bump but I haven't heard of a bump for business. I wouldn't count on one.

If you hope to go to law school right after you graduate I highly recommend taking the June 2008 LSAT. If you're happy with your results you can apply to schools as early as September. If you aren't happy you can always retake in September and still get your applications in fairly early. In law school admissions, there is a significant advantage to applying early in the admissions cycle (sept-oct).

Finally, I recommend you take a look at www.lawschooldiscussion.org. There's lots of good advice to be had there.