Basic Stud8 strategy for a HE player

[Captain R]

Here's my first post in the Stud8 section. A little background about me because I think it will help with the next part of my post, which is questions about low-limit Stud8 strategy.

I've been playing HE poker for about 2 years, building up a $100 bankroll playing limit 2-4 B&M up to now a relatively good 8-16 player with a bankroll ready to start tackling the 20-40 games. IMO, I'm generally the top 1 or 2 players at my 8-16 tables and so far it's been good. However, I decided to expand my poker horizons and pick up Stud8 and am having the damndest time figuring this game out. The game seems completely different and a lot of HE concepts don't seem to apply. Here's how I view myself as a HE player and where I get most of my overlay playing HE:

Preflop standards: A
Player reading/hand reading: B
Using position: B
Hand protection: B
Dropping weak hands: B
Value betting: B
Stealing: B
Bluffing/Fearlessness: D

But I'm finding that a lot of these skills are not translating over to Stud8. Here's my typical Stud8 game. It's 4-8 limit, $1 ante, $1 bring-in ring game. Typically 6-8 players sitting at the table. If it's limped in, typically 2/3 limp in, if it's raised, maybe 1/3 will go-in. Generally loose and passive, probably typical of low-limit Stud8.

My 3rd street game is fairly bad at Stud8, but I'm learning by reading SuperSystem 2. I'm misplaying marginal hands quite a bit 4th street and later. Some HE concepts seem greatly reduced in importance -- position is not as important since it changes, stealing is pretty hard to do (hands generally go to showdown), hand protection seems almost pointless... the only skills it seems like I'm using are hand reading/player reading and value betting. So I'm trying to figure out where you generally get your overlay in Stud8 and what mistakes you can best take advantage of.

Some things I've learned -- 2 pair sucks. Aces up is marginal and can get you the high, but you really need to have trips or higher to be betting and "charging" those draws.

It seems like aggressiveness without a strong made hand does not work very well. On 3rd street you can raise with a good starting hand, and on 4th street you can bet/raise with a good drawing hand, but from there on you're betting/raising with made lows and made good highs. Betting with two pair can be pretty marginal, especially if it's anything less than Aces up. So far it seems like I'm betting/raising more than most people, and it doesn't seem like the correct strategy. Another thing I noticed that's different is that a lot of streets will get checked around if people catch bricks, whereas in HE this is rarely the case. Hand protection on anything other than a made low or a pretty good high seems questionable.

So is low-limit Stud8 all about starting hands and then just checking around until you hit your low and then betting/raising? Should I turn into a checking/calling station until I hit my hand? Or what should I be concentrating on to beat this game? Here's one basic question, how do you play split Aces with a small kicker. Raise on 3rd, but how far can you take this hand betting all the way?

Thanks,
Ray

[Andy B]

Get Ray Zee's book.

[BigPoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Get Ray Zee's book.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's also a Stud/8 section in SS2.

[MortalWombat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Get Ray Zee's book.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's also a Stud/8 section in SS2.

[/ QUOTE ]Is either book more appropriate or applicable for Stud/8 beginners?

[Songwind]

SS2 is less complicated. I found it to be a good starting point. Split-Pot-Poker has a lot more detail and theory in it, and has the added bonus of containing a whole book on Omaha/8 too.

[Captain R]

I have SS2, but found that only about half of it seems to apply to the low-limit games I'm playing in. Some of the moves are a little bit tricky and seemed it would go way above the heads of my normal opponents...

[Beavis68]

Read SS2.

Your comments seem like you are getting a grip on the game.

[Songwind]

[ QUOTE ]
I have SS2, but found that only about half of it seems to apply to the low-limit games I'm playing in. Some of the moves are a little bit tricky and seemed it would go way above the heads of my normal opponents...

[/ QUOTE ]

I found that to be true as well. Unfortunately there is no "loose game full of stupid people" book for Stud like SSHE is for Hold'Em so you just have to pay attention and make your own adjustments.

Plus, if you play more by the book now, you'll have those habits when it becomes important later, even if you don't get full value for all your hands now.

[getfunky]

[ QUOTE ]

Your comments seem like you are getting a grip on the game.


[/ QUOTE ] I agree, you are sensing some very important things - Zee's book will help you understand the game much better and you will be able to adjust your game to the table style. Here's what I liked about what you said - value betting - this is probably the most important skill, that is getting value on hands that are likely to scoop and getting away from hands early where if all goes well you'll split, breaking even or earning a small profit. If you are the only one betting and raising, keep it up - checking around is seldom a good idea - it means your hand has little potential to scoop. Most low limit players check if they brick 5th and do not raise even if they have a low flush or low open-ended str8. Most low limit players call 5th st with 8432k offsuit vs better low draws when they have little equity in the pot other than possibly getting lucky and outdrawing one of their opponents for 1/2 the pot. As you noticed, bluffing and ante-stealing are less important parts of the game and high hands are tricky to play. Zee's book will give you an excellent foundation and thru experience you can adjust your play to the table - just keep the tricky plays in your holster until you're at a table where people show a tendency to think about your hand and a willingness to fold.

[Captain R]

OK, thanks for the tips guys. I'll get Zee's book and think some more about the game, it certainly emphasizes much different poker skills than HE. HE seems so utterly simple in comparison.

I've actually been playing HE lately because it's discouraging to see your bankroll go down trying out things that don't work in a game you don't understand. But I'll study some more and hit the Stud8 tables again. So far it seems so much more complex than limit HE.