Pot awarded after defective deck found

[pokerfloor]

Roberts rules say "if one or two cards are missing from the deck does not invalidate the hand"
which I was suprised to read after looking it up

[pokerfloor]

If a dealer counts down the stub and finds a card missing he is not going to announce it to the table he is going to ask for a new setup as quietly as possible not wanting to open a can of worms I've had this happen only to find the card at the end of the night under the bummper on the table
so the players are not going to know alot of times when this happens I have also seen the shufflemasters count incorrectly and had to have the dealers counting the stub even when using a shuffle machine

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
Roberts rules say "if one or two cards are missing from the deck does not invalidate the hand"
which I was suprised to read after looking it up

[/ QUOTE ]

I was surprised as well (obviously). I thought I knew da rule.

I've told my tale in person to a couple floor people and about 6 dealers. Not a one knew that the results from a 51-card deck stand. To a person, they all said that the bets should have all been backed out. So it's a pretty obscure rule which doesn't come up very often.

But ya gotta agree with Randy's rationalization for the results from 51 cards standing. It's too easy for a player to stuff a card under the rail or otherwise dispose of a card and then use that a few minutes later if he's about to lose a big pot.

I remain ok with losing that pot, but annoyed with how the floor and mostly the casino manager handled it. But my annoyance with said people isn't an issue for Gaming. I'll forgive the floor--he's young and new and will get better, and he was apologetic about it all after we read the rule book and thought we had proof he'd goofed. Casino manager is old and experienced and should know better.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if OP is dealt J-J, how fair is it that after the hand is over, we discover that a jack is missing from the deck, cutting his odds of making a set in half..

He's putting in huge amounts of money into the pot thinking he has two jacks in the deck to help make his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

BZZZZT! Results-oriented thinking. Please step aside and an inspector will be with you shortly to rid your understanding of this misconception. It's no different than saying, "I should have picked Seat 8 because Seat 8 is getting all the cards tonight."

As long as nobody knew that the Jh was missing, the game was entirely fair. In any dealt hand, there's a slight chance that a card might be missing from the deck. There's a chance that, given there is a missing card, it might be of the rank you wish was in there. But until at least one player knows the rank of the card missing, it should in no way affect the play of the game.

To really blow our minds, the dealer could have announced before the hand, "We're playing this hand with a defective 51-card deck because I picked out a random card for a souvenir after I get fired" -- that is, the dealer could know it was the Jh missing -- and as long as the card was randomly selected it still wouldn't in any way work to the disadvantage of the JJ. The only way it changes things is if one or more players know which card is missing, or if we know ahead of time some ne'er do well is trying to collect one-eyed jacks from every room in Vegas. Then JJ would obviously go down in value.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

As long as nobody knew that the Jh was missing, the game was entirely fair. In any dealt hand, there's a slight chance that a card might be missing from the deck. There's a chance that, given there is a missing card, it might be of the rank you wish was in there. But until at least one player knows the rank of the card missing, it should in no way affect the play of the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1942619
pokenum -h jc js - ah ks / jh
Holdem Hi: 1533939 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jc 808110 52.68 719253 46.89 6576 0.43 0.529
Ks Ah 719253 46.89 808110 52.68 6576 0.43 0.471

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=82420
pokenum -h jc js - ah ks
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jc 969964 56.65 735381 42.95 6959 0.41 0.568
Ks Ah 735381 42.95 969964 56.65 6959 0.41 0.432

It matters. Isn't a random card. The game is run under the assumption that there are 52 cards. It may not be worth invalidating hand over but don't pretend it makes no difference.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't a random card.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is until someone knows which card it is.

The twodimes output is quite informative to any absolute novices reading this -- well, OK, any novices who are also devoid of common sense -- but what we really need is some sort of Poker Stove like simulator that pulls one card out of the deck with range {2c - As}.

Obviously if you preordained that it was a jack missing, a set of jacks is going to be harder to make and JJ is going to lose value. The point is that no one in this example so preordained it at the time the hypothetical player with jacks made his decision.

Apparently you don't get the distinction between, "Some card was removed from the deck, and after the hand it turned out to be the jack of hearts," and, "The jack of hearts was removed from the deck."

[VORP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if OP is dealt J-J, how fair is it that after the hand is over, we discover that a jack is missing from the deck, cutting his odds of making a set in half..

He's putting in huge amounts of money into the pot thinking he has two jacks in the deck to help make his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

BZZZZT! Results-oriented thinking. Please step aside and an inspector will be with you shortly to rid your understanding of this misconception. It's no different than saying, "I should have picked Seat 8 because Seat 8 is getting all the cards tonight."

As long as nobody knew that the Jh was missing, the game was entirely fair. In any dealt hand, there's a slight chance that a card might be missing from the deck. There's a chance that, given there is a missing card, it might be of the rank you wish was in there. But until at least one player knows the rank of the card missing, it should in no way affect the play of the game.

To really blow our minds, the dealer could have announced before the hand, "We're playing this hand with a defective 51-card deck because I picked out a random card for a souvenir after I get fired" -- that is, the dealer could know it was the Jh missing -- and as long as the card was randomly selected it still wouldn't in any way work to the disadvantage of the JJ. The only way it changes things is if one or more players know which card is missing, or if we know ahead of time some ne'er do well is trying to collect one-eyed jacks from every room in Vegas. Then JJ would obviously go down in value.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know nobody knows which card is missing?

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know nobody knows which card is missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's a good question. I would imagine that's the whole basis of the entry in Robert's Rules. Obviously if I'm knowingly hiding the jack of spades under the rail then I can play differently knowing that spade flushes, pairs and sets of jacks, Broadway, etc. are less likely. Allowing play to stand once that's discovered would make no sense.

[AKQJ10]

I knew there was a "classic" example of what I'm trying to say that was eluding me. Now I've recalled it.

We all know that a flush is about 4:1 to come in on the river, based on nine suited cards remaining among the 46 unseen cards in the deck. But every once in a while, a beginner will raise this objection: What about cards that are in other hands, folded or live? Suppose that five clubs are among the five folded hands, and two more are in your opponents hands. Doesn't that mean that you really have only two more clubs to catch, and hence you can't use the 4:1 number?

And they're right -- except that their objection hinges on having the "God's eye view" in which you know what all the cards are. But of course, no oneactually polls everyone at the table before deciding whether to draw at the flush.

Likewise, even if the player with the JJ knows only that some unknown card is missing, but knows nothing about the rank of that card, then from his perspective he's still drawing live -- no different than if two opponents had folded the case jacks preflop.

[jjshabado]

Very nice example. I agreed with you, but couldn't figure out a way to explain it any better than you already had. I think the flush example is good.