Q9s turn or flop raise? 2-4

Hydrant · #1 10-18-2006, 07:04 PM

Should I have raised the flop of was a turn raise better?

The villan is 9.2/5.75/3.57 after 70 hands only.

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

James. · #2 10-18-2006, 07:09 PM

this is a great example of why you should raise the flop. and that is a bad turn card for you, so i don't really get the raise at that point; AQ/KQ aren't folding. in fact the only thing folding is a worse hand that you may get another bet out of by just calling.

Hydrant · #3 10-18-2006, 07:17 PM

What do I get by raising a flop? Better hands are not folding there eather?

TheHip41 · #4 10-18-2006, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What do I get by raising a flop? Better hands are not folding there eather?

[/ QUOTE ]

because on the flop, you have the best hand, on the turn, you are basically tied with every queen you were beating, and losing to KQ, AQ, and you are now losing to a J, and still losing to a straight.

The turn raise only collects value from straight draws. If you get 3bet on the turn, you probalby have to fold, but if he has a straight, you have like 100 outs.

Hydrant · #5 10-18-2006, 07:35 PM

Ok, I was thinking to raise him on turn since if he calls with a worse hand I would collect 1 SB more, and when another J fell I thought I might make him fold a Q with a better kicker. You don-t think it would ever work that way? Is my thinking wrong?

Bill C · #6 10-18-2006, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What do I get by raising a flop? Better hands are not folding there eather?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand is almost certainly best at that point. When you have an edge you have to bet it, and also protect your hand. Villain could have a hand that contains either a Jack or a nine, in which case he might fold. Plus he will have a more correct view that you have a strong hand and could fold UI on the turn if a blank falls.

As others said, the turn Jack counterfeits your 9's and makes you much more vulnerable. Now it is too late to bet or protect; you may well be behind at this point.

bc

ncboiler · #7 10-18-2006, 09:26 PM

I'm raising the flop to make A/Q and A/K pay to see a showdown. J hit on the turn which makes your 3 pair not look so good but as you played I would have called the turn expecting to see A/Q or K/Q putting you in a WA/WB situation. I actually don't see much here that you beat with which villian would have raised PF.

acesovercole · #8 10-19-2006, 02:02 AM

I definately raise the flop. Call the turn and if SB bets the river, I call that too. There's no way I would raise after the J hit the turn when it counterfits my 9. I'm scratching my head as to why the SB felt it was correct to bet the turn, but just c/c the river... Hmm... WTF?

gezuz · #9 10-19-2006, 03:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this is a great example of why you should raise the flop. and that is a bad turn card for you, so i don't really get the raise at that point; AQ/KQ aren't folding. in fact the only thing folding is a worse hand that you may get another bet out of by just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not just c/c all the way down then? the only hand we could really punish is TT.

SeaEagle · #10 10-19-2006, 09:17 AM

Admittedly, sb's stats don't mean much over only 70 hands, but if I had any question about how to play the flop, his stats would put me on the 'raise' side. He's going to be playing a strong hand that's behind a lot (AA/KK/AQ) and he's going to 3-bet it and let you cap.

After the turn, you're toast. Since you didn't raise the flop, you kind of have to call down because AK is still in his betting range. If you'd raised the flop and got any turn/river action from him, you could fold this board unless you had pot odds to draw to your slightly-discounted 6 outs.