Early UFC 74/75 Lines

[Performify]

For those looking for a peer-reviewed source with multiple references:

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/...drug-tests.htm

the most relevent section:

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Thus, since NA and NE are endogenous steroids, it's not the presence of nandrolone metabolites that constitutes a positive drug test for nandrolone. As such, we need to be able to distinguish the natural endogenous products from the exogenous ones, including the anabolic steroid nandrolone and the various prohormones such as norandrostenedione and norandrostenediol.

To this end, the IOC and other sporting federations have decided to establish a urinary threshold concentration above which constitutes a positive doping test for the anabolic steroid nandrolone and/or one or more of the prohormones. And this is where the major problem lies.

Unfortunately for the athletes, establishing a urinary threshold level for nandrolone metabolites is currently a difficult and speculative process, due largely to the lack of scientific knowledge within this area.

For example, endogenous production has been shown in several studies to vary and has been found to be as high as 37 ng per ml in male subjects. (Debruyckere et al., 1990) No specific studies have been undertaken to determine excretion rates in females, although it has been demonstrated that natural female urinary NA concentrations are significantly higher than males (Ciardi et al. 1999).

Use of a threshold level also becomes difficult when environmental and physiological stress results in changes in the excretion rate of steroidal metabolites. Recent work by Le Bizec et al. (1999) has demonstrated that exercise can result in significant increases in nandrolone metabolite concentrations in voided urine. It was found that NA abundance within a soccer players urine increased by 300% during the course of a game.

As well, preliminary data from a study in the UK has shown that urinaly levels of NA may vary secondary to exercise, the use of non-banned nutritional supplements, and perhaps even from sickness, another form of stress for the body. (see Appendix 1 below)

Unfortunately, due to the lack of scientific knowledge in this area, it is not possible to conclusively state the natural range of nandrolone metabolite excretion in males or females, under both natural and stress conditions, with or without the use of various non-banned nutritional supplements. As a result, it is also impossible to set a scientifically or legally sustainable threshold level above which a doping offence can be proved to have been committed.

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Host of references at the end of the article.


Based on Sherk's seemingly abnormal physical stature and his observed insane workout regimen and barage of legal supplements (ignoring for the moment any potential illegal supplements) based on the referenced work above (assuming a lack of negative peer reviews, which I freely admit I have not taken the time to research) it certainly seems reasonable to suspect that the natural level in Sherk's body given the above could have resulted in the level tested.

Not saying he is, not saying he isn't.

Personally if I were in charge and I wanted to get serious and heavily regulate it, I would have the fighters under contract subjected to monthly (maybe bi-monthly) blood tests. Any state which wants to fight under the unified rules sets up at least one sanctioned test facility in the sanctioned state -- hell, if I'm Zuffa LLC I do it at my own expense if necessary, its not like I'm not running at a decent profit margin. I move exclusively to blood testing via gas chromatography / mass spectrophotometry with multiple samples. I completely revamp the rules, the testing, and the penalties (I'd set it at one year no-contact suspension + 100% of fight purse + bonus money).

Then when I had this infrastructure and proved it work, I'd then lobby the NFL, MLB, and NBA to adopt the same policy using my facilities (or even lobby the national legislature to enforce it, wouldn't be infeasible) thus step 3 = Profit.

-P

[DannyOcean_]

Wow, i leave for a little while and the thread explodes.

Here's my point once again.

Imagine a guy who goes around and skirts danger all the time. Constantly puts himself in dangerous situations. Do i feel sorry for him when he gets hurt? Not in the slightest. Is he a bad person, should his insurance have to pay, etc etc? I don't pretend to know. But i have little sympathy for him. He didn't do anything illegal or morally wrong, but he was reckless and any smart person could see it.

Same with Sherk. Sure he wasn't legally wrong (maybe. theres still the chance he just stuck a needle in his butt, in which case all of this is moot.) But if you are taking TWENTY TWO BODY-CHEMISTRY ALTERING SUBSTANCES WHEN THERE IS DOCUMENTATION SAID SUBSTANCES CAN CAUSE FALSE POSITIVES IN DRUG TEST AND YOU DO IT ANYWAY, i simply can't feel sorry for you.

Don't run with the bulls in pamplona and expect pity when you get gored. The risk is there to anyone with their eyes open.

Don't take 22 different pills designed to alter your body chemistry when you are tested on said body chemistry and you have no idea what's going on in there, and studies suggest false positives are very possible.

Do you honestly think any doctor in the world can keep track of how 22 different pills are going to react with each other? Especially when the whole field of body metabolism and steriods and the effects and so on and so forth is not completely understood by scientists.

just have no sympathy for him is all... surely you can see why. He ran with the bulls and got gored. If he was too dumb to realize the horns existed, too bad for him i guess.

[DannyOcean_]

also to thremp,

where did i say i was anti-testing?

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
also to thremp,

where did i say i was anti-testing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I must've made an error. I didn't think you were. Sorry.

[igetbadbeat]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, i leave for a little while and the thread explodes.

Here's my point once again.

Imagine a guy who goes around and skirts danger all the time. Constantly puts himself in dangerous situations. Do i feel sorry for him when he gets hurt? Not in the slightest. Is he a bad person, should his insurance have to pay, etc etc? I don't pretend to know. But i have little sympathy for him. He didn't do anything illegal or morally wrong, but he was reckless and any smart person could see it.

Same with Sherk. Sure he wasn't legally wrong (maybe. theres still the chance he just stuck a needle in his butt, in which case all of this is moot.) But if you are taking TWENTY TWO BODY-CHEMISTRY ALTERING SUBSTANCES WHEN THERE IS DOCUMENTATION SAID SUBSTANCES CAN CAUSE FALSE POSITIVES IN DRUG TEST AND YOU DO IT ANYWAY, i simply can't feel sorry for you.

Don't run with the bulls in pamplona and expect pity when you get gored. The risk is there to anyone with their eyes open.

Don't take 22 different pills designed to alter your body chemistry when you are tested on said body chemistry and you have no idea what's going on in there, and studies suggest false positives are very possible.

Do you honestly think any doctor in the world can keep track of how 22 different pills are going to react with each other? Especially when the whole field of body metabolism and steriods and the effects and so on and so forth is not completely understood by scientists.

just have no sympathy for him is all... surely you can see why. He ran with the bulls and got gored. If he was too dumb to realize the horns existed, too bad for him i guess.

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Wow, now that you've clarified your viewpoint I understand that my arguments were directly aimed at people with said viewpoint, and that Thremp was thinking something entirely differently.

Think about what you are saying...if you are taking 22 legal supplements, none of which are PH's (those are no longer legal ANYWAY), then it is your responsibility to know that it doesn't make you show positive (which would be a TRUE NEGATIVE) for your steroid test? ARE YOU JOKING ME!?

The burden falls upon the agency testing to be sure that the test they administer accurately tests for the substances they are banning. If Sherk proves he is doing exactly what you just said and not taking any deca, he will be exonnerated. Doesn't that alone prove your view point wrong?

Also, my view is that much more likely than not, Sherk WAS in fact using a BANNED substance. The only part that doesn't make sense is that the half life of deca is so well known, so how could he do something so stupid? My viewpoint is that those who are in fact not guilty, should not be punished. There is a lot of evidence pointing to the possibility of TRUE NEGATIVES, ie not guilty testing positive and IF sherk falls under that category I think he should be cleared.

You on the other hand appear to be saying it's his own fault because if he wants to do something legal that might be inaccurately labeled as illegal, that's his damn problem. I guess then you are all for those who are cheating and using banned substances but are calculating enough to get away with it and test negative.

[igetbadbeat]

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just have no sympathy for him is all... surely you can see why. He ran with the bulls and got gored. If he was too dumb to realize the horns existed, too bad for him i guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you must see why this is illogical? You have no sympathy for Sherk who is innocent but tested guilty because he should have known that doing what is legal may still falsely be accused guilty?

That is what you are saying right? No sympathy for those who are wrongly accused but could have avoided it by not doing what is within their legal right?

You are blowing my mind and I don't mean that as an insult, I am just beyond baffled and await your response.

[Thremp]

igetbadbeat,

What would you feelings be about designer steroids?

[igetbadbeat]

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igetbadbeat,

What would you feelings be about designer steroids?

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Example? But even things like M1T, I beleive that should be banned from sports...and I'm pretty sure it is. When I talk about sherk being a True negative, I am explaining that it is possible without designer roids. I guess my gray area is things like Nutrex 1-TU and 4-AD, but those are illegal now anyway...

[igetbadbeat]

I guess at the very core, I beleive in my morals more than anything else and one of my morals includes accountability. As such, I may not always agree with the law but I certainly respect it.

From my current understanding of many steroids and banned substances, there are a couple which I would like to use that are illegal. When I'm in my 40's I would certainly like to be able to use some small doses of HGH, but if I were busted for it, I would certainly understand why I'm supposed to pay the legal penalty. On the other hand, when given a chance to make a difference, I will also try to reform laws so that they make more sense.

I am also pro cannabis, but I would not fault a police officer that arrested someone for possession of marijuana. That's what the law is now and I beleive it should be respected.

If Sherk is using designer steroids that are not illegal the way playing poker is "not illegal" and these are the reason for him testing positive...then i do beleive the full suspension should stand. That is a violation of the spirit of the law and I now see that's what you (thremp) were referring to. But in the same token, I also beleive sherk would be just in attempting to file a lawsuit against the manufacturer of the company. Morally, I could see the lawsuit go either way depending on a number of factors, but I do beleive that is what should happen. So...

1) Sherk is using roids=guilty as charged (I think 90% likely)

2) Sherk is using some modified form of steroids like with a methyl added to it and is now illegal (2% chance)=guilty as charged

3) Sherk is using a legal designer steroid =guilty as charged but he should strongly consider filing suit against said company

4) Sherk is not using any of these and still managed to test positive via his rigorous work ethic and smart use of healthy and legal supplements. People here the number 22 and probably think he's using some type fo steroid, but 22 is not a lot. I will give a hypothetical situation

1) BCAA's
2) Whey Protein
3) Whey protein fraction(hydrolyzed)
4) NAC
5) Beta alanine
6) Creatine
7) Stinging nettle root
8) DHEA(this is coming close to gray area)
9) L-Glutamine
10) Multi-vitamin
11) Glucosamin
12) Cissus
13) celadrin
14) AAKG KIT
15) Betaine annhydrous
16) Caffeine
17) Hydrolyzed rice powder
18) combo of Fructose/Dextrose/Maltodextrin
19) Citrulline Malate
20) GABA (Not gabapentin)
21) Tribulus
22) horny Goat weed.

In said case( which I beleive is maybe 5% likely) I would like to see Sherk Exonnerated and Sherk vs BJ happen. It is possible and I'm following the spirit out U.S. law..innocent till proven guilty. Sure it's not a criminal case so he has to prove much more than just reasonable doubt, but I'm giving him the chance and hoping it's true but I'm not saying I beleive it's lilely to be true.

[DannyOcean_]

igetbadbeat,

I find myself at a murder scene one night. I just randomly walk up to it.

I proceed to step in the blood carelessly without realizing it and leave tracks all around.

I touch the corspe to see what's going on and leave fingerprints. I stick around bc i want to see the police come. I pick up the murder weapon and examine it to see if i can figure out how it went down, because death excites me.

I prank call the family and tell them "I killed your Family Member loool" because i'm a jerkoff and i think it is funny.

Not suprisingly, i am arrested when the cops get there, and found guilty the next month in a speedy trial.

Do you have sympathy for me? I'm completely innocent after all.

Surely you can see my point... If not then you probably never will and I'm the one who is flabbergasted.