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#51
10-25-2007, 10:58 PM
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Re: Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar\'s 10k
I still don't know the results but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Vivek didn't win this hand for some reason
but anyway, how is check/calling the turn better than betting it? this board isn't particularly good and he's checking 5-8 outers behind soooooo often. 
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#52
10-25-2007, 11:41 PM
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Re: Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar\'s 10k
Yeh, I have to agree with Adanthar. Seems like this is a good board to bet out or checkraise top 2 pair.
I assume villain must already have a straight or set with all the lines ending in fold and the suggestions to fold preflop. I mean ZeeJustin is God. There must be a Trinity with atleast 3 of him. Fold anything less than jacks when he is raising any 2. If you see a flop, he will outplay you with position.
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#53
10-25-2007, 11:44 PM
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Re: Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar\'s 10k
[ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I have to agree with Adanthar. Seems like this is a good board to bet out or checkraise top 2 pair. I assume villain must already have a straight or set with all the lines ending in fold and the suggestions to fold preflop. I mean ZeeJustin is God. There must be a Trinity with atleast 3 of him. Fold anything less than jacks when he is raising any 2. If you see a flop, he will outplay you with position. [/ QUOTE ] betgo this is why you are my favorite poster.
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#54
10-26-2007, 12:29 AM
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Re: Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar\'s 10k
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Even knowing results I still think check/call turn and bet/fold river is the best line. [/ QUOTE ] Does anyone ever say the best play is check/call turn and bet/call river? Never. Its always bet fold river. At least 90% of the time the line is discussed on here. [/ QUOTE ] This seems really interesting to me and I'd love if some of the best MTTers could weigh in on what I'm about to say. I've kinda noticed this what Curtains is saying. I've been wondering and have come to the conclusion that the biggest reason that I'm not as good as I'd like to be is a lesser ability to win tons of chips without showing down. Is this the reason that the best MTT players in the world are who they are? It seems to me that bet folding this hand on the river against a player like ZeeJustin is a big mistake. I mean from his perspective, you NEVER have anything better than 2 pair if you check call the turn and bet the river. So, him being excellent, is he not going to raise you a large amount of the time knowing you can't call because you virtually never have anything better than the 2 pair? This deep OOP vs. an expert I would be content to either lead the turn and then eval if he raises or just check each street and call trying to get him to bluff. Am I crazy?
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#56
10-26-2007, 01:18 AM
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Re: Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar\'s 10k
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that bet folding this hand on the river against a player like ZeeJustin is a big mistake. I mean from his perspective, you NEVER have anything better than 2 pair if you check call the turn and bet the river. So, him being excellent, is he not going to raise you a large amount of the time knowing you can't call because you virtually never have anything better than the 2 pair? [/ QUOTE ] Eh, I can definitely c/c, bet 87 there (risky but worth it sometimes) and definitely any trips or better if the river improves me somehow. that said, yes, theoretically people (including ZJ) should bluff shove there all the time. but the thing about posting 'bet/fold the river with top 2' is that no one actually does it, and the reason why they say to bet/fold is because they always call and see the nuts.
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#57
10-26-2007, 01:35 AM
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Re: Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar\'s 10k
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It seems to me that bet folding this hand on the river against a player like ZeeJustin is a big mistake. I mean from his perspective, you NEVER have anything better than 2 pair if you check call the turn and bet the river. So, him being excellent, is he not going to raise you a large amount of the time knowing you can't call because you virtually never have anything better than the 2 pair? [/ QUOTE ] Eh, I can definitely c/c, bet 87 there (risky but worth it sometimes) and definitely any trips or better if the river improves me somehow. that said, yes, theoretically people (including ZJ) should bluff shove there all the time. but the thing about posting 'bet/fold the river with top 2' is that no one actually does it, and the reason why they say to bet/fold is because they always call and see the nuts. [/ QUOTE ] How about a prize for someone that can find a hand where they bet/fold 2 pair or better? Of course, it can't be some ridiculous board where like... you have 1 card in your hand making 2 pair, or like there's a 4 flush or w/e
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#58
10-26-2007, 02:02 AM
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Re: Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar\'s 10k
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It seems to me that bet folding this hand on the river against a player like ZeeJustin is a big mistake. I mean from his perspective, you NEVER have anything better than 2 pair if you check call the turn and bet the river. So, him being excellent, is he not going to raise you a large amount of the time knowing you can't call because you virtually never have anything better than the 2 pair? [/ QUOTE ] Eh, I can definitely c/c, bet 87 there (risky but worth it sometimes) and definitely any trips or better if the river improves me somehow. that said, yes, theoretically people (including ZJ) should bluff shove there all the time. but the thing about posting 'bet/fold the river with top 2' is that no one actually does it, and the reason why they say to bet/fold is because they always call and see the nuts. [/ QUOTE ] As I would normally play this hand using a weakline against aggressive good villain OOP with a hand has good showdown value. Check/call the turn, check the river, and call shove most river cards. There is a difference between river value bet and bluff from villain's line/river betsize. Stack size is extremely important. Having said that, I like c/c turn and c/c river. Bet fold river isn't the best line. Villain is good, we'll never give him chance to get us off the hand. There is about 120K in the pot at the river, villain shoves 180K is suspecious after merely putting in 35K at the turn. Edit: Assume river isn't a scared card, combine villain's turn bet and river bet size, we can find out if villain has straight at the turn. So check the river and see his river bet is critical. If we bet the river on a non-scared river card, villain's shove would make it very hard for us to read, given pot size/stacksize and his line.
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