It is a long shot!

[Josem]

[ QUOTE ]
while searching around you might find some information like over 90% of iraqis are demanding US forces to leave iraq. would you (or him) support results of referendum (as the highest form of direct democracy) about that issue?

[/ QUOTE ]

After a brief search through Google, i wasn't able to find any poll that showed "over 90% of iraqis are demanding US (sic) forces to leave iraq." Can you please provide a link?

[ QUOTE ]
also, you might check what kind of 'democracies' are welcome in that region. democracies? lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Israel is a democracy in that region. I note the Arab world's attitude towards Israel.

2) Are you saying that Arab people are unable to have a democracy? What is it about those people that makes you think they are unsuitable for democracy?

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Are you saying that Arab people are unable to have a democracy? What is it about those people that makes you think they are unsuitable for democracy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he's saying that the US isn't really interested in democracy as much as interested in democracies that the US can control or at least are heavily allied with US interests.

[Josem]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe he's saying that the US isn't really interested in democracy as much as interested in democracies that the US can control or at least are heavily allied with US interests.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't those two things the same thing though? Are there any liberal democracies in the world that are not heavily allied with US interests? While, the individual policies of individual leaders and parties from individual countries will, from time to time, differ to that of the US, they're not fundamental differences.

For example, the policy differences between the US and, for example, the leftist PM of New Zealand, Helen Clark, pale into insignificance when compared to the policy differences between the US and many non-democratic nations. It is noticeable that as Russian democracy fades away, there is increasing tension with that of the US.

The basic conception of neo-conservatism (I'm out and proud, btw) is that democracy, as well as being good for the residents of democratic states, is also good for other democratic states.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe he's saying that the US isn't really interested in democracy as much as interested in democracies that the US can control or at least are heavily allied with US interests.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't those two things the same thing though? Are there any liberal democracies in the world that are not heavily allied with US interests? While, the individual policies of individual leaders and parties from individual countries will, from time to time, differ to that of the US, they're not fundamental differences.

For example, the policy differences between the US and, for example, the leftist PM of New Zealand, Helen Clark, pale into insignificance when compared to the policy differences between the US and many non-democratic nations. It is noticeable that as Russian democracy fades away, there is increasing tension with that of the US.

The basic conception of neo-conservatism (I'm out and proud, btw) is that democracy, as well as being good for the residents of democratic states, is also good for other democratic states.

[/ QUOTE ]

The US doesn't seek to control New Zealand or exploit its resources for self-interest. And of course, the answer to your question is "No" -- genuinely promoting democratic ideals != propping up only those democracies you can control or exploit -- such a view is complete "doublespeak", can't you see why?

[boracay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
while searching around you might find some information like over 90% of iraqis are demanding US forces to leave iraq. would you (or him) support results of referendum (as the highest form of direct democracy) about that issue?

[/ QUOTE ]

After a brief search through Google, i wasn't able to find any poll that showed "over 90% of iraqis are demanding US (sic) forces to leave iraq." Can you please provide a link?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure. here are results of poll from last year - WorldPublicOpinion; University of Maryland; sept.2006

Question: Which of the following would you like the Iraqi government to ask the US-forces to do:
- 37% withdraw within 6 months
- 34% withdraw within 1 year
- 20% withdraw within 2 years
---------------------------------
= 91%
- 09% only reduce as the security situation improves

some other questions:
Do you think the US military in Iraq is currently:
- 21% a stabilizing force
- 78% provoking more conflict than it is preventing
(BTW 97% of sunnis think this = these are those who can't be linked to Iran, which is media constantly trying to tell you)

another interesting result, which media and your government would like you to not hear about:

Approval of Attacks on US-Led Forces:
61% overall (and again 92% by Sunnis)

one might think this is because of strong al Qaeda/bin Laden influence, but he would wrong:

Views of al Qaeda and bin Laden:
94% unfavorable to al Qaeda
(12% somewhat unfavorable and 82% very unfavorable overall
(77% Sunnis = 39% somewhat and only 38% very)

93% unfavorable to bin Laden
(16% somewhat unfavorable and 77% very unfavorable overall
(71% Sunnis = 48% somewhat and only 23% very unfavourable)

i guess results are showing something else media is serving all the time - most of Iraqis generally support attacks on US-led forces, but at the same time they refuse AQ. i guess they view them as their fight for freedom and independence and not as act of terrorism.

my question: in case of referendum and voting 51% for leave Iraq, should the US administration accept the reality and the most democraticly expressed will of Iraqis or not?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, you might check what kind of 'democracies' are welcome in that region. democracies? lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Israel is a democracy in that region. I note the Arab world's attitude towards Israel.

2) Are you saying that Arab people are unable to have a democracy? What is it about those people that makes you think they are unsuitable for democracy?

[/ QUOTE ]

kaj gave you a good answer. also regarding the question of democracy, Iran would be shining in the company of Saudi Arabia or Pakistan (and most of other countries in the region). You should accept US never wanted democracy in the Middle East countries as they can work much better with dictatorships.

John F. Kennedy: The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
my question: in case of referendum and voting 51% for leave Iraq, should the US administration accept the reality and the most democraticly expressed will of Iraqis or not?


[/ QUOTE ]

My answer is that the administration should first of all, admit its huge mistake in the Iraq war, and admit to its lies to get the country were it is. Then maybe, we need talk reparations?

I am sure anything can be resolved diplomatically if there is a will!

PS I note that you are still following the gullible line and confusing Iraq and Al Qeada. Iraq, under Saddam, was an opponent of Al Qeada!

[boracay]

[ QUOTE ]
PS I note that you are still following the gullible line and confusing Iraq and Al Qeada. Iraq, under Saddam, was an opponent of Al Qeada!

[/ QUOTE ]

you're wrong (here and here). in many posts i said if destroying AQ and terrorism would be a prime goal for the administration, Saddam would be the best coalition in the whole region. there was no AQ under Saddam and i strongly believe Saddam would deal in US interests with terrorists as he was before.

what i wanted to express was media is constantly using some myths like:
- insurgents are terrorist groups (according to the poll not true unless they say a large majority of iraqis are terrorists)
- AQ is very strong in iraq (i would agree AQ is becoming stronger, but at the same time i'd say overall support for AQ would be higher in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan)
- constantly delivering facts how bad iran is, while results are showing sunnis are the group which commits most attacks, which demands US forces to leave and see them as an occupying force by the highest percentage. and paradoxically the sunnis are the group which is armed by US.


" I have the greatest admiration for your propaganda. Propaganda in the USA is carried out by experts who have had the best training in the world -- in the field of advertizing -- and have mastered the techniques with exceptional proficiency ... Yours are subtle and persuasive; ours are crude and obvious ... I think that the fundamental difference between our worlds, with respect to propaganda, is quite simple. You tend to believe yours ... and we tend to disbelieve ours. " - a Soviet correspondent based five years in the U.S.

"If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television - can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power." - Howard Zinn

"The media serve the interests of state and corporate power, which are closely interlinked, framing their reporting and analysis in a manner supportive of established privilege and limiting debate and discussion accordingly." - Noam Chomsky

[MidGe]

boracay,

I read your linked posts and your answer, and I stand corrected, I was obviously wrong!


"Sorry"

Now. will you go as far as admitting wrong and reparation, from the US and it allies?

[boracay]

[ QUOTE ]
boracay,

I read your linked posts and your answer, and I stand corrected, I was obviously wrong!


"Sorry"

Now. will you go as far as admitting wrong and reparation, from the US and it allies?

[/ QUOTE ]

i assume we both would support those, but it would be an illusion to expect that. the reality is they would never admit the war was wrong and refuse any reparations. no matter if millions would die.

imo it would be a remarkable achievement if nations would finally agree precisely about some basics (that is without using double standards) like establishing international war crimes tribunal by giving USA the position where they would write the rules, but those rules would apply to everybody including for themselves, civil courts for everybody including for prisoners of war and giving stronger power to the UN. sadly, that's another illusion.

"Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." - Ernest Hemingway

"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." - Albert Einstein

[guids]

that 91% is a [censored] and leading statistic. I dont see how you can get out of it "91% of iraqis want us out". you are making a dangerous and stupid transition.