Slowplay?

[James.]

BB-pretty good player. probably the one of the best LHE players at this casino. i know his main game online is the party 30 as i've discussed the game with him in the past. he is capable of bluffing. he is a strong value-bettor. he is also capable of making pretty good folds. folds that, quite honestly, i don't feel comfortable making on a consistent basis. anyway, on to the hand:

i open K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]UTG+1, button coldcalls, sb folds, BB 3bets, i 4bet, button folds, BB calls. his only calling can mean alot of things since i have position. what it does not mean is he doesn't have a monster.

Flop(10.5sb): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

he checks, i check?

what merits does this line(i intend to call down and bet if checked to)have against a pretty good player? if he is capable of folding a lower PP on the flop, combined with increasing his aggression(and action) on the big streets is there merit? do warning flags go up as soon as i check behind? should warning flags go up as soon as he checks it to me? because the pot is sizeable should i just bet HOPING for a fold? does it matter that he could checkraise this flop as a value bluff with JJ? would it be better to b/c the flop, call the turn and fold the river UI if he fires again? am i asking too many questions? thanks.

[sharpie]

The problem is I think checking through the flop tells him you have KK/QQ most of the time, and you might still end up getting owned if he wants to check/raise the turn.

There's no point in AK checking behind since it would want to induce a value bluff from JJ, and JJ/TT isn't bluffing if you check through, except maybe check/raise bluffing occasionaly, so you just give it a free shot at 2 outs. You also miss out on a SB from the pocket pairs that will calldown.

Also you probably wouldn't check through TT as JJ might fold the flop. I don't think JJ checks through much either.

[KurtSF]

I suck, so I'd definitly be interesed in hearing opinions on my take on this, but that said...

The line you took commits you to calling 2 more BBs to see a showdown. I would want to find out where I was on the flop. If you bet:

(1) you might win the pot right there.
(2) if he puts in a c/r you 3 bet and you should know pretty quickly where you are, costing only 1.5 BBs compared to calling down if he's ahead (and making a nice pot if he's not)
(3)if he smooth calls and checks you can call any riverbet and see the showdown for 1.5 BBs
(4) if he smooth calls, you can fold to a turn donk bet as there are no draws on the board and it looks like a monster (I'm most unsure about this situation... is this a calldown??)


A note on the possibility of facing a flop c/r: if he is a good thinking player as you indicate, he could easily put in a 4-bet on the flop with worse hands like TT-QQ. I can't do this 4th level analysis, so it's up to your read on him what to do here.

I'm also a little unsure about if he calls a 3-bet on the flop. My guess: bet into him on the next street and he will probably find a fold, if not, you probably should.

$0.02 and all that.

[James.]

my responses will be in bold. thanks for the input. i'm going to play some NL in a bit so i'll probably not be able to check back until tomorrow.

[ QUOTE ]
(1) you might win the pot right there. great, but my point is i want to eek out extra value from hands he would fold on the flop.
(2) if he puts in a c/r you 3 bet and you should know pretty quickly where you are, costing only 1.5 BBs compared to calling down if he's ahead (and making a nice pot if he's not) but for .5bb more i get to showdown everytime without scaring off a worse hand
(3)if he smooth calls and checks you can call any riverbet and see the showdown for 1.5 BBs this is reasonable.
(4) if he smooth calls, you can fold to a turn donk bet as there are no draws on the board and it looks like a monster (I'm most unsure about this situation... is this a calldown??) i would call and see if he fires again on the river, i think.


A note on the possibility of facing a flop c/r: if he is a good thinking player as you indicate, he could easily put in a 4-bet on the flop with worse hands like TT-QQ. um. no he wouldn't against me. especially since i'm not 3betting the flop.

I'm also a little unsure about if he calls a 3-bet on the flop. once again, i'm not 3betting the flop if he c/r. it will only lose more and slow down a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
(1) you might win the pot right there. great, but my point is i want to eek out extra value from hands he would fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does a c-bet scare away worse hands? If he won't call one on the flop getting 10:1 I don't think he'll call anything on the end... unless he's drawn out on you or has you beat. And if he starts betting on the turn don't you think you're beat? Because I doubt he valuebets out of position with an underpair here. (?)

[ QUOTE ]
(2) if he puts in a c/r you 3 bet and you should know pretty quickly where you are, costing only 1.5 BBs compared to calling down if he's ahead (and making a nice pot if he's not) but for .5bb more i get to showdown everytime without scaring off a worse hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your goal to go to showdown or to win the hand?

[ QUOTE ]
(4) if he smooth calls, you can fold to a turn donk bet as there are no draws on the board and it looks like a monster (I'm most unsure about this situation... is this a calldown??) i would call and see if he fires again on the river, i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you fold if he does?

[ QUOTE ]
A note on the possibility of facing a flop c/r: if he is a good thinking player as you indicate, he could easily put in a 4-bet on the flop with worse hands like TT-QQ. um. no he wouldn't against me. especially since i'm not 3betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know this, I think that's even more of a reason to 3-bet against a c/r!

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also a little unsure about if he calls a 3-bet on the flop. once again, i'm not 3betting the flop if he c/r. it will only lose more and slow down a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can eat your cake and have it too. Do you want more money in the pot or less? Folding to a flop 4-bet will lose less than calling turn and river bets (which a TAG with an A in his hand will certainly make for value after checking behind on the flop). And making him fold a worse hand will prevent him from hitting a thin draw.

I don't see the problem with a b/r/f line on the flop.

Any future streets would depend on the action you get.

[James.]

Kurt,

i think you're missing the point. this guy is not a moron. read his description. he is capable of bluffing. he is capable of folding a lower pp. he is ALSO valuebluffing alot. if he c/r the flop i get no info. he may just give it up, though. point is, the flop bet seems mandatory but i'm giving the cheapest card possible on a drawless board to what is usually a two outer. if i think it will increase the frequency that 2bb go in on the big streets by a worse hand it seems it would be well worth it. and he will never fold an ace to me so forget about that. 3betting a c/r by him is spew, plain and simple. thanks for the input, though.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Kurt,

i think you're missing the point. this guy is not a moron. read his description. he is capable of bluffing. he is capable of folding a lower pp. he is ALSO valuebluffing alot. if he c/r the flop i get no info. he may just give it up, though. point is, the flop bet seems mandatory but i'm giving the cheapest card possible on a drawless board to what is usually a two outer. if i think it will increase the frequency that 2bb go in on the big streets by a worse hand it seems it would be well worth it. and he will never fold an ace to me so forget about that. 3betting a c/r by him is spew, plain and simple. thanks for the input, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your line about mandatory betting the flop is key here. You'd likely be betting the flop with many hands when checked to here. Many meaning lower pairs also. So if he c/r's you, if you had an A, you'd be calling it out anyways letting him bet off his chips.

I don't think it's a big deal to play it the same way. Although, he might not fire again on the river after you will seemingly be in call down mode once you call the turn. He might think you'll slide one off to the turn and then he'll bet the turn. But the river bet he may be figuring you'll call anyways so it may have a bit more value attached.

But since you just checked the flop, if he bets, just call him out.

b

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
Kurt,

i think you're missing the point.

...

thanks for the input, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you appreciate it. I'm here to learn too; just trying to figure it out myself. And thanks bernie for your feedback too.

If anyone with search skillz can find that thread I'd love to read it too.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Is your goal to go to showdown or to win the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't why you'd 3 bet the flop. You're not that concerned with actually 'winning' the pot on the flop. If you are, you're losing a bit of potential profit.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
(1) you might win the pot right there.
(2) if he puts in a c/r you 3 bet and you should know pretty quickly where you are, costing only 1.5 BBs compared to calling down if he's ahead (and making a nice pot if he's not)
(3)if he smooth calls and checks you can call any riverbet and see the showdown for 1.5 BBs
(4) if he smooth calls, you can fold to a turn donk bet as there are no draws on the board and it looks like a monster (I'm most unsure about this situation... is this a calldown??)


[/ QUOTE ]

1- Not really worried about winning the pot this early.

2- Why would you want to 3 bet this flop if he'll fold a lesser hand, with near minimal outs, in doing it? If you call his c/r, what does he think you have that you just called his c/r with on this board?

3- not a bad line.

4- not sure I'd fold to a donk bet from this type of player.

b